A Biblical Basis for the "Immaculate Conception"?

AO Ministries ^ | 1991 | James White

[stuartcr]

OK

[paladinan]

Biblically sound. There are NONE that are good, no not ONE. ALL have fallen short of the Glory of God (Except Mary?)

Er... first of all, you've mis-quoted Romans 3:10: "as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one"; it doesn't use the word "good". And the rest of the Scriptures (i.e. context), along with the Sacred Tradition from which the Scriptures were made, make it rather clear that a mere "word-matching/cut-and-paste" approach to this Scripture verse won't work:

Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God. (Genesis 6:9)

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God, and turned away from evil. (Job 1:1)

I, Tobit, walked in the ways of truth and righteousness all the days of my life, and I performed many acts of charity to my brethren and countrymen who went with me into the land of the Assyrians, to Nineveh. (Tobit 1:3)

But beyond this: are you seriously asserting the idea that, for example, unborn children are guilty of sin? What sorts, do you think? (Drinking too much amniotic fluid?) What of the unborn who die by abortion? Are they "sinners"? What of the profoundly mentally handicapped? Are they "sinners"? Sin requires a free choice to violate the law of God; surely you know that? And unless you're now willing to admit the reality of Original Sin, I don't think your case can be maintained, here.

[RoadGumby]

I take that to mean we have concluded this time together? :^)

[cloudmountain]

From Catholic Answers:
There are two primary categories of grace: actual and sanctifying. Actual grace is extrinsic to the soul, meaning that it is an impulse to do good or avoid evil that is sent by God and acts upon the soul much like a tugboat gently nudges an ocean liner to move in a certain direction. Sometimes the nudges aren't very subtle, as in the case of Saul who received a massive blast of actual grace on the road to Damascus in Acts 9:1-8. This actual grace "nudged" him to convert to the Catholic faith. Sanctifying grace, on the other hand, is intrinsic to the soul, meaning that it inheres or takes up residence in the soul. When Saul surrendered his heart to Christ and entered the Church the Holy Spirit infused his soul with sanctifying grace.

Sanctifying grace refers to that in Christians by which they are transformed into the adopted children of God. The share in divine life which God offers created persons is a real regeneration, a second birth. Christians possess a new life which is their own (see Rom 6:4); they are new creatures (see 2 Cor 5:17), new men and men re-created in justice, holiness, and truth (see Eph 4:24). This new life is "grace" because it is a divine gift, "sanctifying" because it really transforms a person with the holiness of divine life. . . .

The expression actual grace is used in various contexts with diverse references. The common element lies in the fact that the various realities referred to move people to act in ways which positively contribute to God's redemptive work. Thus, actual grace can refer to God's causality, insofar as God brings sinners to conversion and causes the good deeds of the saints. It can refer specifically to the work of the Holy Spirit in Christians, helping them in their weakness and nourishing their holiness.

Sometimes "grace," in the sense of "actual grace," refers to created entities conducive to anyone's salvation or the good of the Church. A pious thought, a chance encounter, or even a difficulty which conduces to holiness is called a "grace." (Christian Moral Principles [Chicago: Franciscan Herald Press 1983], 1:614)

....

[stuartcr]

I guess, unless you have more questions.

[RoadGumby]

Sorry for the word swap, it was not intentional. However, good, or righteous, Mary falls into that set of people, and was in need of a Savior as much as you or I.

Noah was righteous per scripture, and Job was described as Perfect, per King James.

Tobit is non-canonical.

Children reach age of accountability, but all are born into sin. Innocence is innocence. But lies do come, pride does come, coveting others things does come, “no” to your mother does come. SIn comes. Inevitable. Then there is need of Jesus.

Of course there is original sin, from Adam to today. Who would say otherwise? That being the case, Noah, Job, and Mary, not to mention John the Baptist and Moses all needed Christ.

[RoadGumby]

What do you believe is the criteria to allow a person or soul to enter the heaven you believe exists?

[stuartcr]

Death

[RoadGumby]

So, you believe that evry person born to this earth, upon death, goes to heaven?

[stuartcr]

If there is one, yes.

[RoadGumby]

You believe that, regardless of any evil you might do (cue Manson, Gacy and Sandusky), you have a good ticket to heaven?

[stuartcr]

I do not believe that what we do here on earth, has any bearing on the afterlife, if there is one.

[RoadGumby]

If no bearing, what do you believe the purpose of being here is?

[RoadGumby]

And, additionally, why do you ‘afterlife, if there is one’? You have said that you believe there is a heaven. So, do you believe that? It is a yes or no.

[stuartcr]

I do not know, that’s God’s business. Like you said earlier, I don’t question the why of God. I treat life as a gift from God. I’m constantly thankful that He didn’t make me a scum-bag rapist or killer, and has granted me a wonderful life.

[Future Snake Eater]

So you’re comparing all Protestant churches to homosexual enclaves? They’re the same thing to you? No differences? Am I really reading that properly?

[stuartcr]

Just because I believe something, doesn’t make it so.

If I said...’of course there’s a heaven’, you would probably ask me how I knew. Then what would I say?

I’ll be back in a coouple hours. Keep asking, and I will answer on my return.

[rzman21]

Don’t forget the good thief. Even evil men can be saved if they experience a true conversion and seek true repentance.

[RoadGumby]

IF we all go to heaven anyway, then what is it that accomplished here by ‘doing good things’ or ‘being moral’?

IF i am going to heaven, no matter what, then why even begin to want to live inside the law if it would be more fun here to run wild?

IF we are going to heaven anyway, you, me and a scum-bag killer, then why is it you believe that killer to be a scum bag? He is heaven bound, just as you are.

[RoadGumby]

But again, having knowledge of something does not obligate Proof. My intent is not to twist that on you.