Following the Truth: A Biblical Roadmap To The One, True Church (Catholic or Open)

CatholicLane.com ^ | May 12, 2011 | Gary Zimak

[ottbmare]

My dear sister in Christ, seriously, I’ve been in Catholic churches all over Europe and the US and I can’t ever recall one occasion in which the people were worshipping statues of birds and fish. Not a single one. Offhand I can’t even remember seeing a statue of a bird or a fish in a Catholic church, much less one being worshipped. Catholics don’t even worship statues of people.

You see, this is exactly what I meant when I wrote that it’s helpful to have an exchange about the specific doctrinal points Protestants dislike about Catholicism. Too often there’s some kind of misconception about what Catholics do and believe.

[Gerish]

Great article, thanks for the ping.

[PetroniusMaximus]

“Now pay attention to the Words of Jesus...”

So you are saying that the Catholic church base it’s claim to authority on the Scripture?

[PetroniusMaximus]

“Not even. Are you actually interested in the “how” or just taking cheap shots?”

I wouldn’t post the argument if I didn’t believe it to be true.

[PetroniusMaximus]

Looks like that article says the Catholic church bases it’s claim to authority on the Scripture.

Is that your position?

[Rashputin]

"Protestantism is founded on William of Ockham’s philosophy and its application to the Bible and Christian faith in general."

They can't stick to it and make any sense of their own doctrines, though. They pick out or make up a doctrine that suits their own intellect, figure out that the simplest case disagrees with their preferred doctrine, then make up reasons to take exception with their own approach. Even applying Ockham would show them how wrong they are on my things. They do begin with Ockham but they drop that approch like a hot rock as soon as anyone asks a question rather than allowing themselves to be force fed.

Regards

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Offhand I can’t even remember seeing a statue of a bird or a fish in a Catholic church, much less one being worshipped. Catholics don’t even worship statues of people."

I think this sort of illustrates her point...

"You must never worship or bow down to them,"

[PetroniusMaximus]

“Three whole posts berfore a fundie says something ignorant.”

That’s very often the crux of catholic argument, “You non catholics are simply too STUPID to understand our position!”

You realize that’s the same argument the Leftist and liberals use.

[ottbmare]

Catholics venerate Mary. We don’t worship her. When we kneel, we are praying to God and we are asking Mary, the woman God chose to be the vessel in which He would begin to live as man, to join her prayers to ours. When you’re sick or in distress, you probably ask holy people in your church or among your friends to pray for you, because you knows that the Bible tells us “the prayers of the righteous availeth much’” So if you ask someone else who is specially holy and specially privileged by God to pray for you, her prayers might help things even more than if you ask your friend to pray for you.

Yes, there is beautiful artwork in and around Catholic churches—some of the most beautiful work ever made by humans. Statues and paintings are reminders to help us visualize, not objects of worship.

[narses]

Certainly Scripture is a critical part. Understand that Scripture as scrip - the written documents - post dated the founding of the Church, at least in regards the New Testament. The Acts of the Apostles are a very important part of the foundational authority of the Universal Apostolic Church. Since the very Church that codified the WRITTEN Acts also was the Church that the Apostles governed, they also had already established the start of what we now call Tradition, which supports the same authority.

[rzman21]

That’s why the Eastern Church doesn’t use statues.

[Not gonna take it anymore]

Then are you saying that Jesus lied when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church?

[Not gonna take it anymore]

***
“We are to look to “the Church” to discover the truth…but which one? “

A hint: It won’t be one that molests your children then seeks to cover it up.
***

No it will be your local school district or Protestant church.

[Country Gal]

I’ve been to several Catholic masses. They left me feeling very empty. I could not wait to get back to my church service to feel the REAL PRESENCE of Jesus Christ.

Our non-denominatinal church specializes in reaching out to the drug / alcohol addicted. So many people have been able to be freed from horrible addictions just by the Blood of Christ and a true relationship with Him. Not through sacraments.

Why do so many Catholics call us evangelicals “Jesus freaks”? If you love someone, you should want to talk about them. Not make fun of people who do.

[Country Gal]

We don’t bow down to them.

[Country Gal]

The last Mass that I was at (and it’s been the same for the prior masses, too btw), people would do some sort of curtsie thing before even sitting down. While doing so, they would look at a statue of Mary and make the sign of the Cross.

Sure looked like bowing, or at least curtsying, to me.

No, it wasn’t to a statue of a fish or a bird, it was to a statue of Mary.

The old testament is replete with God’s warning of people making idols and bowing down to them. Open any of the books in the Old Testament and you’ll see it.

[Country Gal]

John 16:25

This passage is after the Lord’s supper and after Jesus’ comment to Peter about being the rock.

25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

He had been speaking figuratively up until just before He was arrested.

[Country Gal]

I do ask people to pray for me. I don’t bow down to them.

This is one of the things that drives me crazy. Catholics swear that they don’t bow down to statutes, yet every Catholic mass I’ve been do, they are bowing down to statutes. Then they say that’s not what’s really happening. Please, don’t insult my intelligence.

I believe Catholics are Christians. Just stop with the “We are the true church” stuff. It’s not correct and is insulting to those of us who love Jesus with all of our hearts and work so hard to spread His message and are not Catholic. It is very disrespectful and wrong.

[PetroniusMaximus]

“Then are you saying that Jesus lied when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church?”

The church is made up of the true followers of Jesus Christ.

Death, i.e. the “Gates of Hell” will not prevail against His followers for He will raise them up on the last day.

[Squidpup]

"How would you know you were forgiven? How would you know God forgot your sins?"

So you do doubt my salvation, just because I don't attend a Catholic church?

My answer - 2 Cor 13:5 - "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?"

Do you fail this test?

Here is an excellent resource regarding salvation:

...snip...

Conclusion

If you're lacking assurance--if you're plagued withdoubts and have lost your joy, become useless in Christian service, empty in worship, cold in praise, passionless in prayer, and vulnerable to false teachers--whatever the problem, know there is a cure: obeying God's Word in the power of the Spirit.

Let's take the first step toward doing that by applying an ancient technique--a question-and-answer process known as a catechism--to help us think through what God's Word teaches about assurance. The Greek word katacheo means "to echo back." So echo back God's truth as you slowly and thoughtfully read the following:

■Question: What is the essential duty a person has in this world? Consummating a saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, which is to recognize His work on the cross and His resurrection from the dead as the satisfying atonement for sin, and to walk in accordance with that relationship.

■Question: Don't all members of the church have a saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ? No, only those who are truly saved.

■Question: How can I be certain I have that saving relationship? The Lord will have done in your soul His own sovereign will--that of calling you to Himself through a work of conviction and humiliation so you will have discovered your sin and misery, and, being so seriously agitated and threatened by it, you long for the Savior.

■Question: How can I know if I've made sufficient discovery and admission of my sin? By taking salvation to your heart above any other pursuit in life. It will make Christ, your Redeemer, very precious to your soul. It will make you fear sin, repent, and seek to be saved on God's terms.

■Question: What's another way of discerning a saving relationship to Christ? A strong and serious affection that reaches toward Christ as He is progressively revealed to you in the gospel. Such love is the product of saving belief.

■Question: Are there other marks of a relationship with Christ? You are truly saved when you have been made a whole new person, graciously changed and renewed. That is best evidenced by a desire to shun sin and pattern your life in obedience toward God's righteous demands.

■Question: What if I find sin prevailing over me? Although every sin deserves eternal vengeance, if you regularly confess your sins with unhypocritical repentance and shame before God--fleeing to Christ for forgiveness for all known and unknown iniquities--He will grant you mercy and pardon because you stand in grace, and your salvation is forever secure.

■Question: What if my sins are serious and repeated? Whatever they are, Jesus Christ has paid the price for them so that if you sincerely and earnestly have turned to Him in repentant faith, you will never enter into condemnation. Moreover, His gracious provision for those who believe includes power to overcome sin and live righteously.

■Question: Is faith alone the requirement for salvation? Yes, it is the only basis upon which God offers peace and pardon to mankind. However, faith--if it is genuine--will not be alone in the soul, but will always be accompanied by true repentance and an eager desire to conform to God's will and way.

■Question: How can I be sure I've settled my eternal destiny with the Lord? Express with your mouth to God what the Holy Spirit through Scripture has led you to believe in your heart.

■Question: What are the results of a relationship with Christ? Union and communion with God here, and blessed fellowship and glory hereafter.

■Question: How can I come to full assurance that I have such a relationship? By affirming the promises of God as revealed in Scripture by the internal witness of the Spirit, and by manifesting real and righteous fruit born out of love for the Person of Christ and the desire to bring Him honor and glory.

Don't continue to live with doubts about your eternal salvation. Rather, live with the blessed assurance God wants you to enjoy as His child.

http://www.gty.org/resources/Positions/P17/A-Believers-Assurance-A-Practical-Guide-to-Victory-over-Doubt