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To: rzman21

In sum, priests are instrumental in bringing us into his grace, giving us strength through the Holy Spirit, making possible for us that we can receive the marvelous gift of Jesus Body and Blood which forgives sins, are God’s instruments in bringing us back to God when we disfellowship ourselves from God with mortal sins, or cleanse us when we have only venial sin, and give grace on our deathbed. From the beginning of our spiritual life, to the end of our spiritual life, it is priests who nourish Catholics with the Sacraments, and are instrumental in bringing us the means of salvation, in the beginning, middle, and the end of our lives. Priests are God’s instruments for our benefit, and they surely deserve the title ‘Father’.

_____________________________________

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

____________________________________

Sorry FRiend, but I don’t need a mortal man to accept Jesus, walk with Jesus, and live with Jesus. If I seek to serve him the Holy Spirit, not a mortal man, will move me when I sin and correct my path. I don’t need any mortal man to obtain the gift and spirit of Jesus Christ. “Give grace on my deathbed?” Jesus showers all who accept and love him with His grace. It is the greatest gift of Jesus, not a priest. Does a person who dies without a Priest present have less of the Grace of Christ than a person with a Priest?

Writings like this concern me. No earthly institution, church, denomination, or mortal man stands between me and God. Only one thing stands between us and God and it’s not a Priest (never mentioned in this context) -

“”Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.””

Belief in Jesus Christ is the key.... not a denomination or a Priest.


6 posted on 11/25/2011 8:18:31 PM PST by volunbeer (Keep the dope, we'll make the change in 2012!)
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To: volunbeer
The go-it alone Christianity of contemporary evangelicalism is a novelty. Besides no Catholic worships his priests, bishops, or even his patriarch or Pope.

Do you reject Hebrews 13:17: Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

Πείθεσθε τοῖς ἡγουμένοις ὑμῶν καὶ ὑπείκετε, αὐτοὶ γὰρ ἀγρυπνοῦσιν ὑπὲρ τῶν ψυχῶν ὑμῶν ὡς λόγον ἀποδώσοντες, ἵνα μετὰ χαρᾶς τοῦτο ποιῶσιν καὶ μὴ στενάζοντες, ἀλυσιτελὲς γὰρ ὑμῖν τοῦτο.

Let's compare the Greek in 1 Timothy 3 with the Greek in St. Ignatius of Antioch's Epistle to the Church of Smyrna and the Didache.

Scholarship suggests 1 Timothy was written about 62 A.D., while St. Ignatius's epistle was written about 40 years later.

In Timothy 3:1 we find the Greek word ἐπισκοπῆς (episcopos), which literally means overseer or bishop in English. The same is true in 3:2 where we find the form ἐπίσκοπον. It appears again in Titus 1:7. http://biblos.com/titus/1-7.htm

Anti-episcopal Protestants try dismissing the episcopacy as an innovation by fudging the words.

Looking at extra-scriptural references is important because they show how this term was in common usage during this time period.

In the Didache, which was written in the late 1st century, which is the earliest extra-scriptural reference to how early Christians believed and worshiped we find the following.

Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.

The Greek text again uses the same word as the Bible. 1 ceirotonhsate oun eautoiv episkopouv kai diakonouv axiouv tou kuriou, andrav praeiv kai afilargurouv kai alhqeiv kai dedokimasmenouv, umin gar leitourgousi kai autoi thn leitourgian twn profhtwn kai didaskalwn.

In the Epistle to the Smyrneans, episkopos reappears in the following context.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

1. Πάντες τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ἀκολουθεῖτε, ὡς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τῷ πατρί, καὶ τῷ πρεσβυτερἰῳ ὡς τοῖς ἀποστόλοις. τοὺς δὲ διακόνους ἐντρέπεσθε ὡς θεοῦ ἐντολήν. μηδεὶς χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου τι πρασσέτω τῶν ἀνηκόντων εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν. ἐκείνη βεβαία εὐχαριστία ἡγείσθω, ἡ ὑπὸ ἐπίσοπον οὖσα ἢ ᾧ ἂν αὐτὸς ἐπιτρέψῃ. 2. ὅπου ἂν φανῇ ὁ ἐπίσκοπος, ἐκεῖ τὸ πλῆθος ἤτω, ὥσπερ ὅπου ἂν ῇ Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, ἐκεῖ ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία(Catholic Church). οὐκ ἐξόν ἐστιν χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου οὔτε βαπτίζειν οὔτε ἀγάπην ποιεῖν· ἀλλ’ ὃ ἂν ἐκεῖνος δοκιμάσῃ, τοῦτο καὶ τῷ θεῷ εὐάρεστον, ἵνα ἀσφαλὲς ᾖ καὶ βέβαιον πᾶν ὃ πράσσετε. http://www.ccel.org/l/lake/fathers/ignatius-smyrnaeans.htm

Episkopos is also found in the 1 Epistle of St. Clement to the Corinthians, which was written around 95 A.D.

Clement is referenced directly by St. Paul in Philippians 4:3 Philippians Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/info/1clement.html

1Clem 42:4 So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe.

1Clem 42:5 And this they did in no new fashion; for indeed it had been written concerning bishops and deacons from very ancient times; for thus saith the scripture in a certain place, I will appoint their bishops in righteousness and their deacons in faith.

Chapter 42. Οι αποστολοι ημιν ευηγγελισθησαν απο του κυριου Ιησου Χριστου, Ιησους ο Χριστος απο του θεου αξεπεμφθη. ο Χριστος ουν απο του θεου,και οι αποστολοι απο του Χριστου· εγενοντο ουν αμφοτερα ευτακτως εκ θεληματος θεου. παραγγελιας ουν λαβοντες και πληροφορηθεντες δια της αναστασεως του κυριου ημων Ιησου Χριστου και πιστωθεντες εν τω λογω του θεου μετα πληροφοριας πνευματος αγιου εξηλθον, ευαγγελιζομενοι την βασιλειαν του θεου μελλειν ερχεσθαι. κατα χωρας ουν και πολεις κηρυσσοντες καθιστανον τας απαρχας αυτων, δοκιμασαντες τω πνευματι, εις επισκοπους και διακονους των μελλοντων πιστευειν. και τουτο ου καινως, εκ γαρ δη πολλων χρονων εγεγραπτο περι επισκοπων και διακονων· ουτωσ γαρ που λεγει η γραφη· Καταστησω τους επισκοπους αυτων εν δικαιοσυνη και τους διακονους αυτωνεν πιστει.

1Clem 44:1 And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the name of the bishop's office.

Και οι αποστολοι ημων εγνωσαν δια του κυριου ημων Ιησου Χριστου οτι ερις εσται επι του ονοματος της επισκοπης.

Then we find in the rest of the Chapter that St. Clement relates that: 1Clem 44:2 For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration.

A Catholic's first duty is to follow Christ and follow the direction of the bishops, presbyters, and deaons as long as they follow Christ in their words and in their deeds.

Stop setting up strawmen to insinuate that we worship the Pope, our patriarchs, or our bishops.

Sola Scriptura's end purpose is the dogmatization of anti-Catholicism. If scripture is plain, did these holy teachers misunderstand the scriptures? And why do you presume to understand the scriptures better than they? The me and my Bible Christianity that Evangelicals use to attack the Catholic Church would have been foreign to the Christians of the 1st and 2nd centuries. The episcopal polity of the Church distinguished the Christian communities that followed the apostles from the Gnostic pretenders.
13 posted on 11/25/2011 8:45:06 PM PST by rzman21
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To: volunbeer

“Sorry FRiend, but I don’t need a mortal man to accept Jesus, walk with Jesus, and live with Jesus.”

Well, actually you do. We all do. How else do you know of Jesus other than by the original writings of mortal men and by those men who have preserved Christianity across the generations? Would you even be a Christian were it not for the early disciples? Do you not see that we need future generations of men to continue to teach the Word? It is rather boastful to write that you know Jesus through your own acts and not because of anyone else. You only know Jesus because of the acts of many generations of men. You should be more humble, perhaps. Just a suggestion. The choice is yours.


31 posted on 11/25/2011 11:12:12 PM PST by Kirkwood (Zombie Hunter)
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To: volunbeer

The Catholic Church is NOT a denomination. The Evangelical concept of the “Church” and the Catholic/Orthodox/Early Christian conception are different things.

Not to mention, mortal men do NOT confer the sacraments. God does using mortals as means of his grace in the same way he used St. Paul, the prophets, and the other apostles.

They conduits of God’s grace. The sacred mysteries are the ordinary means that Jesus gave us to receive his grace.

When I was a Lutheran, I found the Evangelicals’ anti-sacramentalism strange and even a bit arrogant because it equals presumption.

Martin Luther for one did not see the sort of dualism that you posit. Between faith and the sacraments.

I learned about grace and the sacraments when I was a Lutheran.

There is no contradiction between faith in Christ and the sacraments.


47 posted on 11/26/2011 6:52:45 AM PST by rzman21
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