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To: boatbums
and her status as Mother Of God were so critical for Christians to believe, then why is there NO Scriptural basis for any of those?

Do you believe that Jesus is God? Do you believe that Jesus was a human? Have you heard of the heresies that arose that denied this human nature?

How can one ignore over 1500 years of Christianity and have the conceit to believe that that whole time period was darkness and error?

As has so often been pointed out on so many threads, sola believers need to come to terms that they ignore the foundation that was laid by Christ for the building of His Church and have laid a different one.

I speak these words as one who did exactly that. It is what I was raised in. Came a time that I was blessed to lay aside my bigotry, admit to my ignorance and begin to look at the passages that I had NOT underlined in my Bible. And to figure out where my Bible actually came from.

83 posted on 11/25/2011 6:33:23 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: don-o
Do you believe that Jesus is God? Do you believe that Jesus was a human? Have you heard of the heresies that arose that denied this human nature?

Yes, I do believe that Jesus is Almighty God incarnate and I have no problem with the idea that Mary gave birth to Jesus who is wholly God and wholly man. The Council of Nicea was convened to dispute the heresies that falsely tried to deny the Deity of Jesus and they did a pretty good job of stating, as best as humans can, the mystery of the Trinity. However, I think they went too far by asserting that this made Mary the mother of God. My objection to that is twofold. One, God had no beginning so he had no mother. Jesus the second person of the Triune God, also had no beginning, he always existed and Mary gave birth to the humanity of Jesus not his Deity. Now, I realize that for some, these cannot be separate, but we know from Scripture that Jesus always was, always existed with the Father in eternity, he took on humanity at the incarnation. Christ Bearer, Cristotokos, I would have no problem with.

The second objection is that the result of that ruling in Nicea has resulted in an ever developing, ever growing exaltation of a human being, Mary, that in some cases exceeds that which is given to Jesus and SHOULD be given to him alone.

How can one ignore over 1500 years of Christianity and have the conceit to believe that that whole time period was darkness and error?

I'm not ignoring anything just disagreeing with what is a fault we have as humans that of over doing everything. Just like Peter after the Mount of Transfiguration was so eager and excited he wanted to build a memorial to the event and put in it three altars for Jesus, Moses and Elijah. But what did God say? "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him." Matthew 17:3-5. Now that says something to me about who is supposed to be glorified and honored and praised. At the end EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father.

As has so often been pointed out on so many threads, sola believers need to come to terms that they ignore the foundation that was laid by Christ for the building of His Church and have laid a different one.

I don't ignore that at all but the foundation IS Jesus, HE is the shepherd, we are all members of the Body of Christ that are IN Christ. And the concept of Scripture being the infallible and authoritative source for the truths of the Christian faith is a dearly and ancient held principle. It is NOT a new idea at all. This is an excellent source for reading what the early church leaders believed about the Scriptures and their place in determining the truths we should follow: http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-apostolic-fathers.htm. I hope you will take a few moments and read it, it is very educational and helpful.

I speak these words as one who did exactly that. It is what I was raised in. Came a time that I was blessed to lay aside my bigotry, admit to my ignorance and begin to look at the passages that I had NOT underlined in my Bible. And to figure out where my Bible actually came from.

As someone who may have made the opposite journey from yours, I not only sought to understand the whole of the Bible but also the Christian faith. I have no ill will nor do I hold any bigotry towards others who don't see things exactly as I do. I think there is no place for such things if we are Christians. Now I DO know where my Bible came from and I have grown in my appreciation of it. We are all moving on a path - none stand still - and God is drawing all to himself. I begrudge no ones journey and only try to be a lantern to the truths he has taught me. I know not everyone will hear it, but I can only do as he leads me and I leave the outcome to him. I don't participate on these forums to injure or destroy but to build up the body of Christ.

93 posted on 11/25/2011 8:08:25 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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