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To: D-fendr; All
regardless if one is of the "elect" salvation STILL happens because of God's grace and through faith.

I think that is very incorrect according to the theology. If one is not elect, salvation does not happen. If one is elect salvation happens. Election by itself determines whether salvation must or can not possibly happen. Grace, faith are dependent, election the independent cause. One can say what they wish, but this is the theology.

Like I said, I am not a Calvinist, so if any out there would care to explain this theology better to our FRiend, please do.

Here's my understanding of the point. When you say, "if one is not elect, salvation does not happen", is true because he did not exhibit saving faith. For one to be of the elect, he WILL exhibit saving faith because of God's irresistible grace. In either case, faith is STILL what saves. No one will be saved who does not have faith. No one who is of the elect will not have faith and no one who is condemned will have faith. If you are elect, you will have saving faith. If you are not of the elect, you will not have saving faith.

1,787 posted on 11/30/2011 8:05:11 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums
Thanks for your reply.

When you say, "if one is not elect, salvation does not happen", is true because he did not exhibit saving faith.

According to Calvinism the election came first. Without it there *will not* be any saving faith.

Here's the way you expressed your belief:

"I would say I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and that made me part of "The Elect"."

In Calvinist Predestination, the cause and effect are reversed: Because one is born elect, he/she will therefore have saving faith. Or saved by grace through faith through election.

Remember, in this theology, elect/reprobate is determined before birth. And all the rest is determined by, dependent upon this.

For one to be of the elect, he WILL exhibit saving faith because of God's irresistible grace.

Not "for" but if and only if one is born elect. Your if/then here is backwards from Calvinist Predestination. There are very clear independent and subordinate cause relationships. Faith is subordinate to and dependent upon election; salvation is dependent faith which is dependent upon election. Faith is a conduit but not the cause.

It is quite different than what you and I believe and the cause of the incredible disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians (and others.)

In either case, faith is STILL what saves.

The means by which, but not the reason or true cause.

A somewhat poor analogy: If, say, a decision was made by firemen that they only had time to save the humans, not the pets, in a burning building, and you were thus saved. You could say you were saved by firemen, but the reason you were saved was you were born human.

Similarly, the non elect cannot have the means of saving faith because they were not born elect. Salvation is (determined) by election, not faith.

It is, again, quite different from yours and other theologies and Holy Scripture.

1,797 posted on 11/30/2011 9:01:27 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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