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To: metmom
Spoken like a true American. You seem to view God as being akin to the Queen of England, a constitutional monarch. Scripture doesn't establish an American-style egalitarian state. Perhaps you missed my post about the power of the bishops in scripture. In 1 Timothy, St. Paul uses the term episkopos, which literally means overseer, and in Hebrews you find the term hegumenos, which means leader. Although were all part of a royal priesthood just as the Jews were, we are not all equal. You are living proof that being Biblical is in the eye of the beholder. Hebrews 13:17: Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit. Πείθεσθε τοῖς ἡγουμένοις ὑμῶν καὶ ὑπείκετε, αὐτοὶ γὰρ ἀγρυπνοῦσιν ὑπὲρ τῶν ψυχῶν ὑμῶν ὡς λόγον ἀποδώσοντες, ἵνα μετὰ χαρᾶς τοῦτο ποιῶσιν καὶ μὴ στενάζοντες, ἀλυσιτελὲς γὰρ ὑμῖν τοῦτο. http://concordances.org/greek/2233.htm http://concordances.org/greek/e_goumenois.htm http://misselbrook.org.uk/Parsing.aspx?PNum=6843 http://christianisrael.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/obey-them-that-rule-over-you/ Let's compare the Greek in 1 Timothy 3 with the Greek in St. Ignatius of Antioch's Epistle to the Church of Smyrna and the Didache. Scholarship suggests 1 Timothy was written about 62 A.D., while St. Ignatius's epistle was written about 40 years later. In Timothy 3:1 we find the Greek word ἐπισκοπῆς (episcopos), which literally means overseer or bishop in English. The same is true in 3:2 where we find the form ἐπίσκοπον. It appears again in Titus 1:7. http://biblos.com/titus/1-7.htm Anti-episcopal Protestants try dismissing the episcopacy as an innovation by fudging the words. Looking at extra-scriptural references is important because they show how this term was in common usage during this time period. In the Didache, which was written in the late 1st century, which is the earliest extra-scriptural reference to how early Christians believed and worshiped we find the following. Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord. The Greek text again uses the same word as the Bible. 1 ceirotonhsate oun eautoiv episkopouv kai diakonouv axiouv tou kuriou, andrav praeiv kai afilargurouv kai alhqeiv kai dedokimasmenouv, umin gar leitourgousi kai autoi thn leitourgian twn profhtwn kai didaskalwn. In the Epistle to the Smyrneans, episkopos reappears in the following context. See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. 1. Πάντες τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ἀκολουθεῖτε, ὡς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τῷ πατρί, καὶ τῷ πρεσβυτερἰῳ ὡς τοῖς ἀποστόλοις. τοὺς δὲ διακόνους ἐντρέπεσθε ὡς θεοῦ ἐντολήν. μηδεὶς χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου τι πρασσέτω τῶν ἀνηκόντων εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν. ἐκείνη βεβαία εὐχαριστία ἡγείσθω, ἡ ὑπὸ ἐπίσοπον οὖσα ἢ ᾧ ἂν αὐτὸς ἐπιτρέψῃ. 2. ὅπου ἂν φανῇ ὁ ἐπίσκοπος, ἐκεῖ τὸ πλῆθος ἤτω, ὥσπερ ὅπου ἂν ῇ Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, ἐκεῖ ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία(Catholic Church). οὐκ ἐξόν ἐστιν χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου οὔτε βαπτίζειν οὔτε ἀγάπην ποιεῖν· ἀλλ’ ὃ ἂν ἐκεῖνος δοκιμάσῃ, τοῦτο καὶ τῷ θεῷ εὐάρεστον, ἵνα ἀσφαλὲς ᾖ καὶ βέβαιον πᾶν ὃ πράσσετε. http://www.ccel.org/l/lake/fathers/ignatius-smyrnaeans.htm Episkopos is also found in the 1 Epistle of St. Clement to the Corinthians, which was written around 95 A.D. Clement is referenced directly by St. Paul in Philippians 4:3 Philippians Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/info/1clement.html 1Clem 42:4 So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe. 1Clem 42:5 And this they did in no new fashion; for indeed it had been written concerning bishops and deacons from very ancient times; for thus saith the scripture in a certain place, I will appoint their bishops in righteousness and their deacons in faith. Chapter 42. Οι αποστολοι ημιν ευηγγελισθησαν απο του κυριου Ιησου Χριστου, Ιησους ο Χριστος απο του θεου αξεπεμφθη. ο Χριστος ουν απο του θεου,και οι αποστολοι απο του Χριστου· εγενοντο ουν αμφοτερα ευτακτως εκ θεληματος θεου. παραγγελιας ουν λαβοντες και πληροφορηθεντες δια της αναστασεως του κυριου ημων Ιησου Χριστου και πιστωθεντες εν τω λογω του θεου μετα πληροφοριας πνευματος αγιου εξηλθον, ευαγγελιζομενοι την βασιλειαν του θεου μελλειν ερχεσθαι. κατα χωρας ουν και πολεις κηρυσσοντες καθιστανον τας απαρχας αυτων, δοκιμασαντες τω πνευματι, εις επισκοπους και διακονους των μελλοντων πιστευειν. και τουτο ου καινως, εκ γαρ δη πολλων χρονων εγεγραπτο περι επισκοπων και διακονων· ουτωσ γαρ που λεγει η γραφη· Καταστησω τους επισκοπους αυτων εν δικαιοσυνη και τους διακονους αυτωνεν πιστει. 1Clem 44:1 And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the name of the bishop's office. Και οι αποστολοι ημων εγνωσαν δια του κυριου ημων Ιησου Χριστου οτι ερις εσται επι του ονοματος της επισκοπης. Then we find in the rest of the Chapter that St. Clement relates that: 1Clem 44:2 For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration.
1,679 posted on 11/30/2011 1:19:08 PM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21
Let's compare the Greek in 1 Timothy 3 with the Greek in St. Ignatius of Antioch's Epistle to the Church of Smyrna and the Didache. Scholarship suggests 1 Timothy was written about 62 A.D., while St. Ignatius's epistle was written about 40 years later.

You want to compare the Holy words of God with the fictitious writings of one of your alleged church fathers???

How do they dupe you guys into falling for this stuff???

1,838 posted on 12/01/2011 6:21:31 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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