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To: mas cerveza por favor; RnMomof7
The Church can never undefine a teaching she has infallibly defined. Therefore, the Church only defines doctrine when it is absolutely necessary.

I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you, mas. Consider:

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302) http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

St. Thomas Aquinas: It is also shown that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. St. Thomas Aquinas, Against the Errors of the Greeks, Pt. 2, ch. 36 http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraErrGraecorum.htm#b38

…that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, Bull promulgated on February 4, 1441 (Florentine style), proclaimed “ex cathedra” (infallible).

The Holy Catholic Church teaches that God cannot be adored except within her fold; she affirms that all those who are separated from her will not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great, “Moralia,” XIV:5)

Neither the true Faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church. It is a SIN to believe that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. (Ven. Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem, March 17, 1856; cf. also OUR GLORIOUS POPES, Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Cambridge, MA: 1955, p.168)

But now,

RCC: 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:…Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]

[This absolves those who are convinced she is not, but have been baptized in Christian faith.]

..there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (Cf. Jn. 16:13) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical [Protestant] communities…

They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. — LUMEN GENTIUM: 16.

…those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.” “All who have been justified by Faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ: they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” — http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

RCC: 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]

Read more at http://peacebyjesuscom.blogspot.com/2011/09/contradictions-in-roman-catholicism.html

1,473 posted on 11/29/2011 7:25:32 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums; smvoice; HossB86; RnMomof7; metmom; caww

Wait. So they found out that what they had infallibly made doctrine wasn’t in fact infallible or are they saying that God changed His mind? And now they say a person doesn’t even have to believe in Christ and they can still be saved? Oy!


1,489 posted on 11/29/2011 7:44:56 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: boatbums
The Church can never undefine a teaching she has infallibly defined. Therefore, the Church only defines doctrine when it is absolutely necessary.

I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you, mas. Consider:

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302)

[is contradicted by Vatican II:]

..there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (Cf. Jn. 16:13) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical [Protestant] communities

They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. — LUMEN GENTIUM: 16.

Your raise a legitimate issue. Christ said "No one comes to the Father except through me" and He founded His One Catholic Church with sacraments as the means of coming through Him. This simple truth is affirmed by Boniface VIII. In addition, there is a belief that catechumens or martyrs who die before baptism would be saved if they had a desire for baptism and therefore of coming through Jesus. However, LUMEN GENTIUM and derivative catechisms appear to directly contradict with Unam Sanctam and there are other documents of Vatican II council that apparently conflict with previously-established infallible teaching. Therefore, traditionalist Catholics hold that any new, conflicting doctrine taught at Vatican II could not have been infallibly defined.

The Pope is currently conducting discussions with the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X over the apparent contradictions of Vatican II. Given Church's divine protection against error, it is safe to conclude that the Vatican will eventually be forced to admit that the novel doctrines of Vatican II never "took" and should be discarded.

1,605 posted on 11/30/2011 8:34:20 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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