Posted on 11/23/2011 11:11:08 AM PST by marshmallow
A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.
Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.
>>>>>as you call us in derision, don’t serve those who have less than us is totally an untruth.
Kindly read my post again. Tell me where I boasted. I was just whining about stuff metmom and smvoice posted about my kitchen work. I have never considered you a harpy of any kind, I was talking about others who brag about not doing anything. Hope I’m not wrong.
PS God will surely bless you for your service to Our Lord, you never know what will come from the seeds of love you plant...He multiplies our efforts to His Glory, and heals us by our labor I have found it impossible to give more than I receive, in that blessed kitchen.
Who's mocking or ridiculing someone who is feeding the hungry?
To claim their love of Christ is merely trying to buy their way out of purgatory?
Then why do Catholics say that works have to be added to faith to gain salvation?
Do your scriptures tell your church to do that?
The Bible doesn't teach on purgatory, so, no, the church I attend does not tell people to do works to earn their way out of it.
BTW, I've never seen anyone here, especially metmom and smvoice, bragging about doing nothing.
It's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
Fortunately, your opinion is of no consequence to me when I stand before God.
What matters is what I've done with Jesus. I am clothed in His righteousness and stand before Him with the legal debt of sin against me having been canceled out.
I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ in God's eyes and He sees me as sinless and perfect and treats me as such.
Note: Did you mean 2Th 2:15?
You seem to be pointing at tradition. To what end? Does that somehow negate the COMMANDMENT of the Master Himself that we TEACH AND DO Torah?
I didn't convert to Protestantism. I accepted Christ's finished work on the cross for the payment of my sins and have been born again. That makes me a Christ follower, a new creation in Christ, adopted into His family, transferred from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of the Son he loves.
Colossians 1:13-14 13He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
I am not a Baptist, Lutheran, Calvinist, or whatever label you wish to slap on me. That is not my identity in Christ. My identity in Christ is Christ. In Him I live and move and have my being.
Protestant converts to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy start with a desire to know more and do it for intellectual reasons.
1 Corinthians 1:18-25 18For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Corinthians 2:11-16 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
MM:>>>>Who’s mocking or ridiculing someone who is feeding the hungry?
You are. Post 2177: ________________________________________________________________MM:You mean like the mafia hitman who’s a good, practicing Catholic and can just go to confession, which the priest is bound to keep silent about, and confess his sin and pay no legal or civil penalties, but takes a few trips about the rosary and voila’ he’s all free and clear.
And in case that’s not enough, he can stack up some good works feeding the poor and get that get out of purgatory free cards.____________________________________________________
MM:>>>>>>Then why do Catholics say that works have to be added to faith to gain salvation?
They don’t, didn’t you listen in catechism, or is that autobiography of the Catholic you a falsehood?
MM:>>>>>Do your scriptures tell your church to do that?
Oh, are we skipping to 2519 now? Is this a game? Multiple questions and answers from differing pages?
Get your act together, I’m not playing hopscotch with your jumbled posts anymore.
MM:>>>>Who’s mocking or ridiculing someone who is feeding the hungry?
You are. Post 2177: ________________________________________________________________MM:You mean like the mafia hitman who’s a good, practicing Catholic and can just go to confession, which the priest is bound to keep silent about, and confess his sin and pay no legal or civil penalties, but takes a few trips about the rosary and voila’ he’s all free and clear.
And in case that’s not enough, he can stack up some good works feeding the poor and get that get out of purgatory free cards.____________________________________________________
MM:>>>>>>Then why do Catholics say that works have to be added to faith to gain salvation?
They don’t, didn’t you listen in catechism, or is that autobiography of the Catholic you a falsehood?
MM:>>>>>Do your scriptures tell your church to do that?
Oh, are we skipping to 2519 now? Is this a game? Multiple questions and answers from differing pages?
Get your act together, I’m not playing hopscotch with your jumbled posts anymore.
Who brags about doing nothing, or rather not doing anything?
Could you point us to those posts?
MM:>>>>Who’s mocking or ridiculing someone who is feeding the hungry?
You are. Post 2177: ________________________________________________________________MM:You mean like the mafia hitman who’s a good, practicing Catholic and can just go to confession, which the priest is bound to keep silent about, and confess his sin and pay no legal or civil penalties, but takes a few trips about the rosary and voila’ he’s all free and clear.
And in case that’s not enough, he can stack up some good works feeding the poor and get that get out of purgatory free cards.____________________________________________________
MM:>>>>>>Then why do Catholics say that works have to be added to faith to gain salvation?
They don’t, didn’t you listen in catechism, or is that autobiography of the Catholic you a falsehood?
MM:>>>>>Do your scriptures tell your church to do that?
Oh, are we skipping to 2519 now? Is this a game? Multiple questions and answers from differing pages?
Get your act together, I’m not playing hopscotch with your jumbled posts anymore.
Feeling guilty?
MM:>>>>>>Could you point us to those posts?
Nope. I’m not playing hopscotch for you anymore. Enough people have seen the posts, FR keeps them forever.
No. I got out from under guilt and condemnation long ago.
When God convicts me of something in my life that needs to be addressed, I deal with it, move on, and that's the end of it. No living under a cloud of guilt and condemnation for someone free in Christ.
Romans 8:1-4 1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:14-15 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"
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You can call yourself whatever you want, but my observation stands. If you were like most Catholics who left the Church since the 1960s, you likely were poorly catechized and had a shallow understanding of your faith.
You didn’t understand Catholicism when you were a Catholic, and it is obvious that is still the case.
My father left the Catholic Church after the changes disillusioned him with Catholicism. But unlike him, I place my faith in God and Christ’s command that we all be one instead of bishops when they go off the reservation.
St. John Chrysostom said the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of reprobate priests and bishops.
Colossians 1:13-14
Haydock:
Ver. 10. Worthy of God: axios tou kuriou. So St. Ambrose and the Greek doctors; or thus, worthily, pleasing God, and this not by faith only, but fruitful in every good work. (Ibid.) -— God, in[1] all things pleasing him. This is the construction of the Latin by the Greek. (Witham)
Ver. 14. It is through the blood of Christ, and not by the law of Moses, that we are freed from the power of death. If the law could have saved us, the coming of Christ would have been useless. See then, he says, if it be proper to engage under a law which is so inefficacious. (Calmet) -— From this verse and from ver. 12, et alibi passim, we are taught that we are not only by imputation made partakers of Christ’s benefits, but are by his grace made worthy thereof, and deserve our salvation condignly, ex condigno. (Bristow)
1 Corinthians 1:19
Ver. 19-20. I will destroy the wisdom of the wise. I will confound the false and mistaken wisdom of the great and wise philosophers, of the learned doctors or scribes, of the curious searchers of the secrets of nature. -— Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world, by the means he hath made use of to convert, and save the world, particularly by sending his only Son to die upon a cross? the preaching of which seems a folly, &c. only they who are called, believe Christ, though crucified, to be the power and wisdom of God. (Witham)
2 Corinthians 2:11-16
Ver. 11. In the name and in the person of Christ, I ordered him to be excommunicated; in the same, I order him now to be re-admitted into your communion, and this for your sake. We ought to take care that the remedies we employ, do not give occasion to the triumphs of Satan, by throwing the patient into despair, on account of our too great severity. (St. Ambrose) -— The Greek may be translated: that we may not fall into the power of Satan, on account of our too great severity. (Calmet)
Ver. 12, &c. When I was come to Troas....and a door was opened to me, towards promoting the gospel, which I never neglect, yet I had no rest in my spirit; I remained still in a great concern for you, not meeting with Titus, from whom I expected with impatience to hear how all things went with you at Corinth: I went on, therefore, bidding them farewell at that time, and deferred the good I might do by a longer stay with them till another time. (Witham) -— Troas is the same town as the ancient Troy or Ilium, famous for its ten years’ siege, when it was destroyed by the Greeks in the year 1184, B. Christ [1184 B.C.]. (Estius) -— Here, though there was a great promise of abundant fruit, St. Paul’s solicitude to meet Titus, that he might learn from him the effect of his letter, made him depart from Macedonia, where he had much to suffer. (Bible de Vence)
Ver. 14. Thanks be to God, who always causeth us to triumph by his grace, so that we every where make manifest the odour of his knowledge, making God known and worshipped, and instructing the people in the faith of Christ, to the advantage and eternal good of those who hearken to us, and are saved; but to the greater condemnation of those, who after they have heard of the truth, by their own fault remain obstinate: so that the preaching of the gospel is to some the odour of death unto death, when they remain dead in their sins, they incur an eternal death: and to them who are converted, the odour of life unto life; they receive the spiritual life of grace in their souls in this world, and an eternal life in the next. (Witham)
Ver. 16. The odour of death, &c. The preaching of the apostle, which by its fragrant odour brought many to life, was to others, through their own fault, the occasion of death; by their wilfully opposing and resisting that divine call. (Challoner) -— And for these things who is so sufficient,[3] as we whom Christ hath chosen to be the ministers of his gospel? In the Greek copies and in St. Chrysostom, we only read, who is fit? as if he said, who is fit to discharge this great duty, without the continual assistance of God’s grace? The reading of the Latin Vulgate seems to agree better with the following verse of the next chapter, when he answers their objection, Do we then begin again to commend ourselves? (Witham) -— Who are so fit as we who are chosen by God to fulfil his ministry? If God had not chosen us, how should we have been able to acquit ourselves of so arduous an undertaking? for we did not intrude or thrust ourselves into this ministry. (Calmet) -—Though it is not so difficult for those to preach the gospel who corrupt its doctrines, who weaken its truths, who disguise its obligations, and who mix the word of God with human inventions in order to be more esteemed, or for the sake of filthy lucre, like those who mix and adulterate their wines, in order to be the greater gainers. (St. Chrysostom) -— But we preach the word in all sincerity, as on the part of God, in the presence of God, and in the Spirit and person of Jesus Christ. (Bible de Vence) -— In this grand work all may justly tremble, for who is fit? as we read in the Greek.
One could simplify the Protestant position about faith and works as the couch potato’s way to salvation.
Sit around say you love Jesus, but do nothing that demonstrates you love Jesus, and you will be saved. It’s sort of like a husband saying to his wife that he loves her, but not backing up his words with deeds.
Christ saved us objectively in the past, but we must co-operate with his plan for salvation to be saved after we die.
Otherwise, our faith is meaningless as St. James says.
Belonging to the Church is a prerequisite for salvation, but it does not guarantee that you will be among the elect because it is up to you to co-operate with grace.
Empty and meaningless faith is worthless. You can’t have faith without works anymore than you can have works without faith.
But Catholics and Protestants can be united behind the assurance that salvation is a result of God’s grace and not as a result of anything we have done on our own.
The sacraments are God’s works, not ours.
Mark, You’re married IIRC, unless I’m confusing you with Mad Dawg.
Tell me, when someone gets married do they not enter a covenant relationship with each other? Or is it a business contract, more like a bill of sale?
Is your wife your wife because she cooks and cleans and pays the bills, and does the chores, or is she your wife because you love her and married her? A housekeeper can do all the chores for crying out loud. Does that make her your wife?.
Does she, or would she, cease to be your wife because she burnt the dinner or neglected to mop the floor one day? Does a husband send his wife away with a bill of divorcement because she didn’t do enough good works to earn or maintain her position as his wife?
If she were to do something like lie to you about a purchase (for whatever reason) do you kick her out of the house and divorce her until she comes crawling back? If she asks your forgiveness for said offense, do you not grant it, condition free because she’s your wife and you love her? Or does she need to feel obligated to scrub the kitchen floor with a toothbrush to *prove* to you how sorry she is?
Would that really please you? Is that what you want from your wife?
What about children? Are they not born or adopted into your family? And when they disobey, as children will, do they cease to be your children? Does that sever the relationship and you kick them out of the house? Or does it only disrupt the lines of communication but they are still your beloved children whom you love but have seen do something that hurts them? Of course you want them in right relationship with you so they can reap the benefit of being your children, BUT they are still your children, disobedience or not. All their disobedience does is interfere with their ability to experience the fulness of a relationship with you. They don’t cease to be your children.
What kind of God do Catholics serve who wouldn’t even do for us what we, as humans beings, would do for each other?
He’s going to disown us because we slip and fall and disobey sometimes? He’s going to write us out of His will, so to speak, because we’re weak and fallible? Ooops you sinned and didn’t make it to confession before you died. Too bad for you. Go to hell.
You can keep that kind of God. The one portrayed in Scripture is a loving heavenly Father full of grace and mercy, ready and willing to forgive and understanding our weaknesses and NOT ready to throw us under the bus the minute we fail, even if we don’t necessarily get around to confessing each and every transgression before we die.
So those of us who name the name of Christ in faith and by faith are secure in our position before God and secure in His promises of forgiveness and eternal life.
Too bad if you don’t like it. It’s available for anyone for the asking. You can have it too. You just have to believe God that what He said is true. That’s what He wants is simply to be trusted, to be believed that He was telling us the truth.
That pleases Him more than abasing ourselves by scrubbing that kitchen floor with a toothbrush thinking that it pleases Him.
It’s about relationship, not religion and rules and regulations.
Out until FR settles down.......
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