How Calvinists Spread Holiday Cheer

I come from a Protestant family, so I’m not directing anything I have to say against Protestants as individuals or as people.

But look at Protestantism’s fruits. Destroyed Christian unity. The elevation of the individual over divine revelation. The association of personal experience over objective reality.

I can’t help but associate the Protestant mentality with the prevailing secular individualism that says we are so autonomous that we are above God. History shows that the magisterial Protestant traditions in Lutheranism and Calvinism gave way to Pietism and ultimately Englightenment Unitarianism/atheism within 200 years of Martin Luther’s death.

A primary difference between apostolic Christianity as expressed by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches is the emphasis on the fact that we are saved together than that the Church is the Ark of Salvation outside of which no one is saved.

But that does not mean that everyone who is in the Ark of Salvation will be saved because not everyone will persevere.

Protestants threw the baby out with the bathwater.

Who determines a verse’s context absent an understanding of the historic, cultural, and linguistic background of the sacred writer?

The sacred writers didn’t take dictation in the way the Muslims believe their false prophet Muhammad did.

St. Paul’s writings are replete with language and concepts that were present among the Hellenistic Jews, of whom he was considering he was from Tarsus in Asia Minor, not Palestine.

He had to have been a Hellenistic Jew because his Old Testament citations were from the Septuagint.

An interpreter of scripture must first address his or her cultural and linguistic biases before trying to interpret the scriptures.

Otherwise you end up committing eisegisis, not exegesis.

If it wasn't for Protestantism there would be no USA which has been the main proponent for freedom and the main warrior in the fight against communist atheism.

For over 200 years leaders of the US have been Protestant Presidents.

Your argument falls flat.

Your posts are far too long.

Your arguments would be more clear if you used less verbiage.

An Eastern U.S. that had been colonized by a Catholic power like Spain wouldn’t have been a bad thing.

The faith of America is commerce. If if weren’t for Pope John Paul II and Catholics like Joe McCarthy, Communism wouldn’t have been taken too seriously.

Even Ronald Reagan had strong Catholic influences.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/catholic_stories/cs0080.html

Most of the East Coast historic Protestant Churches coddle the Soviets.

Pope Leo XIII sounded a warning about socialism 30 years before Lenin appeared on the scene.

I might add that Protestantism helped to give birth to Freemasonry, which gave birth to atheism.

I might add that Communism was founded by Protestants. Karl Marx was a Protestant.

I don’t know what you base your opinions on (about corporate salvation for example) but here’s what the bible says

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling Phil 2:12

This is the doctrine known as the “priesthood” of the believer, as evidenced in
Revelation 1:6
“and has appointed us as a kingdom, as priests serving his God and Father – to him be the glory and the power for ever and ever! Amen. “

Revelation 5:10
You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”

I think you should view the Church less through the lens of history, and man’s foibles and more with God’s direction as to what the Church (and each believer) should be.

I think you are thinking somehow Catholics or Protestants are superior to each other.....This is a subjectiveness of man....God sees all we do as filthy rags. He does NOT grade on the curve. There WILL be people held accountable for what they have done with the authority they have used.

BTW, did you know “using the Lord’s name in vain” does not mean cursing? It means saying something and mis-using the authority of God to back it up...

Protestants are so different (amongst themselves) that your comments are not appropriate. Christian unity cannot be at the price of error however. What were protestants to do? Wait for the Church to get rid of buying back sins? If they disagreed, they were burned.

I think God has it all under control, and does NOT need a Pope, or other leader. His plan will be fulfilled no matter the weakness of man, or the wiles of the enemy.

If I can make a suggestion, worry less about what others are doing, especially 500 years ago, and more what you are called to do. The only way to know this is prayer/fasting and reading the bible....Not attending a mass, a synagogue or a church.

You said protestantism gave birth to Freemasonry?

Have you NOT read of the Catholic church’s own history in teaching about the Knight’s Templar? Have you ever read what Masons say they are mad about? Being supposedly falsely accused by the Catholic church who they served?

The Catholic church acknowledges this and so do the Freemasons. It’s been a bitter battle ince the 1500s.

Got it...we would have been better off if Spain was in charge of the US.

Thanks for the laughs.

Galatians 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. St. Cyprian of Carthage reminds the Christians of Rome amid the Novatian schism of the 3rd century in his treatise "On the Unity of the Catholic Church" that: The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathers not with me scatters. Matthew 12:30 He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathers elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, I and the Father are one; John 10:30 and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, And these three are one. 1 John 5:7 And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050701.htm The Church is visible and one. http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/stott_church_salvation.htm The Protestant "Reformers" could have followed the example of Catholic reformers like Savaranola or St. Francis of Assisi and worked to reform the corruption in the Western Church instead of founding new religions. I put my faith that God defends his Church and that he will never let the gates of hell prevail against the Church. Matthew 16:19 The visible Church receives its authority from God. I. Ordained Leaders Share in Jesus' Ministry and Authority Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world. Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism). Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions). Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself. Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles. Num 16:28 - the Father's authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority. John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father. John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men. John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God. John 12:49 - The father's authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority. John 13:20 - Jesus says, "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ. John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles. John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated. John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority. Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ's ministry and authority. Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God. Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word "foundation" proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession. Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words "household," "Bride of the Lamb," the "new Jerusalem" are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles. Top II. Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority. Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own." Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority. Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown. Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles. Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop. Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church. Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles. 2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee. Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death. 1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him. 1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). 1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately. 2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands. 2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop. 2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles. Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work. 1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves). Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession. Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession. Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office." Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority. Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority. Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom. Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination. Top III. Jesus Wants Us to Obey Apostolic Authority Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles' special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves. Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ. Rom. 15:16 – Paul says he is a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of the ordained which is distinguishable from the universal priesthood of the laity. Notice the Gentiles are the “sacrifice” and Paul does the “offering.” 1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize ("deliver to satan"). 2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God's word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority. 2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination. 2 Cor. 5:20 - Paul says we are "ambassadors" for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ's mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments. 2 Cor. 10:6 – in reference to the ordained, Paul says that they are ready to punish every disobedience. The Church has the authority excommunicate those who disobey her. 2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God's people which the Lord gave to build up the Church. 1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them. 2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him. 1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders (“priests”) of the Church. Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands. Heb. 12:9 – in the context of spiritual discipline, the author says we have had earthly fathers (referring to the ordained leaders) to discipline us and we respected them. Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and obey their leaders who have authority over their souls. 1 Peter 2:18 - Peter charges the servants to be submissive to their masters whether kind and gentle or overbearing. 1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 - Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders. 2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ. 3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John's apostolic authority and declares that this is evil. Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die. Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a "protestant" rebellion against God's chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. (This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.) Sirach 7:29-30 - with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of salvation with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion. Top

Galatians 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

St. Cyprian of Carthage reminds the Christians of Rome amid the Novatian schism of the 3rd century in his treatise "On the Unity of the Catholic Church" that:

The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathers not with me scatters. Matthew 12:30 He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathers elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, I and the Father are one; John 10:30 and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, And these three are one. 1 John 5:7 And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050701.htm

The Church is visible and one. http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/stott_church_salvation.htm

The Protestant "Reformers" could have followed the example of Catholic reformers like Savaranola or St. Francis of Assisi and worked to reform the corruption in the Western Church instead of founding new religions.

I put my faith that God defends his Church and that he will never let the gates of hell prevail against the Church. Matthew 16:19

The visible Church receives its authority from God.

I. Ordained Leaders Share in Jesus' Ministry and Authority

Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

Num 16:28 - the Father's authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

John 12:49 - The father's authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

John 13:20 - Jesus says, "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ's ministry and authority.

Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word "foundation" proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words "household," "Bride of the Lamb," the "new Jerusalem" are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles. Top II. Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority. Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own." Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority. Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown. Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles. Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop. Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church. Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles. 2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee. Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death. 1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him. 1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). 1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately. 2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands. 2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop. 2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles. Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work. 1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves). Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession. Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession. Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office." Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority. Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority. Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom. Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination. Top III. Jesus Wants Us to Obey Apostolic Authority Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles' special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves. Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ. Rom. 15:16 – Paul says he is a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of the ordained which is distinguishable from the universal priesthood of the laity. Notice the Gentiles are the “sacrifice” and Paul does the “offering.” 1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize ("deliver to satan"). 2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God's word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority. 2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination. 2 Cor. 5:20 - Paul says we are "ambassadors" for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ's mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments. 2 Cor. 10:6 – in reference to the ordained, Paul says that they are ready to punish every disobedience. The Church has the authority excommunicate those who disobey her. 2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God's people which the Lord gave to build up the Church. 1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them. 2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him. 1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders (“priests”) of the Church. Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands. Heb. 12:9 – in the context of spiritual discipline, the author says we have had earthly fathers (referring to the ordained leaders) to discipline us and we respected them. Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and obey their leaders who have authority over their souls. 1 Peter 2:18 - Peter charges the servants to be submissive to their masters whether kind and gentle or overbearing. 1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 - Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders. 2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ. 3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John's apostolic authority and declares that this is evil. Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die. Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a "protestant" rebellion against God's chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. (This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.) Sirach 7:29-30 - with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of salvation with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion. Top

Being supposedly falsely accused by the Catholic church who they served?

>>That’s funny. Any Catholic who joins the Masons is automatically excommunicated.

<<<<<<< >>>>>>> PPPPPPPP. Here, these are for you. Looks like you’re running low..)

Wait for the Church to get rid of buying back sins? If they disagreed, they were burned. Indulgences don't buy back anyone's sins or forgive them in Western Catholic theology. They remit the restitution due to sins committed in this life because Jesus says in Matthew 12:32 that And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. The fathers of the Church such as St. Augustine saw this as implying that Jesus is saying there is forgiveness of sins in the next world. The Council of Trent condemned the selling of indulgences. Protestants were guilty of the same sorts of abuses in terms of burning Catholics at the stake. In England being a Catholic was punishable by death.

This is perhaps the most utterly wrongheaded argument I have come across, except perhaps that of a papal doctrine. It does not track with the text nor with the flow of Paul’s entire argument. It is astonishing you can twist the plain claims of Paul into an Arminian heresy without flinching.

If the text of “Why then does He still find fault, for who can resist His will?” simply means to you that no can blame God for deciding to call people of faith His own, you have lost any hermeneutical anchor and truly made this an interpretation of your own. Tragic, but expected if God has determined to harden some. You may lay the credit of your rescue at your own feet, but you do so at your own peril.

“It does not track with the text nor with the flow of Paul’s entire argument. “

Most of my post is simply the text Paul wrote.

To try to interpret verse 14 without paying attention to verses 6-13 is to ignore Paul, and substitute your own thoughts.

Why do YOU say Paul wrote:

“6 I am not saying that the promise of God has failed; for not all the people of Israel are the people of God.7 Nor are all of Abraham’s descendants the children of God. God said to Abraham,It is through Isaac that you will have the descendants I promised you.

8 This means that the children born in the usual way are not the children of God; instead, the children born as a result of God’s promise are regarded as the true descendants.”

If Paul’s argument was that some names were picked before the world for salvation, and the rest for damnation, why didn’t he say so? Why not precede verse 14 with

“God decided to save some individuals and damn others. And who are you to object?”

In fact, according to most Calvinists, that could replace the entire chapter.

Instead, Paul argues there are people of faith and people of flesh, and that the true descendents of Abraham are those who believe God, and are therefor counted as righteous.

If Calvinism was true, then somewhere in the New Testament, some writer should have written what I wrote above: “God will save those he wants to save, and will damn the rest.”

There are hundreds of verses saying it hinges on faith...why not ONE verse somewhere that says it depends on God picking your name from before the world began, and that all the rest have no hope at all?

Faith occurs 40 times in the ESV translation of Romans. You can read them here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=faith&t=ESV&csr=Rom&sf=5

A sample:

Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Rom 5:1, 2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down)

Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

Look at that last verse again. “They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.”

Why were the Jews (on the whole, not individuals) rejected? Paul says “because of their unbelief”.

Not because they weren’t on God’s list. Unbelief.

“You may lay the credit of your rescue at your own feet, but you do so at your own peril.”

I might say the same of those who ignore God’s word. Paul wrote:

Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

If you call believing a work, you contradict the word of God. If you say we are saved by grace thru election, you contradict God’s Word. When we believe the word of God, our “faith is counted as righteousness”.

“But those who depend on faith, not on deeds, and who believe in the God who declares the guilty to be innocent, it is this faith that God takes into account in order to put them right with himself...Abraham believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous.”

Those who wish to distort the plain sense of the Scriptures routinely call divine determinism Calvinism. It is not. It is simply the story of the Bible.

If Arminianism were true then the greater features of God’s own character would not be true. And, it is this collective gravitas that overwhelms Arminianism. God could not possibly know what happened tomorrow, if “free will” was actually true. If you were utterly free from His influence to do anything and everything you wished, no plan of His could possibly be accomplished, since He would have to wait to see what you would do. But, tomorrow is fixed in His mind, and He is executing it with impecable accuracy. Chap. 9 makes this part of Paul’s overall argument. You may complain that it is not fair to be railroaded to a destiny, but...you are putty in His hands. Sorry.

Solomon makes this same argument claiming that even kings’ hearts are maneuvered by God the way we train a little ditch. The water just goes where we want. The dice thrown look like they are “random”. Surprise...they are not. God decides each item and every event. He brings calamity and He brings goodness. He, and He alone is God.

Foreknowledge implies foreordination. Foreordination implies Predestination. Where does faith come from? It is a gift of God, not by doing something, so that folks like you cannot say, “Well, at least I believed. I deserve to go to heaven.” It is gifted to men when they don’t know enough to even reach for it. You have simply become aware of what He has done for you...and then claimed the credit for doing it yourself. This is what is so repugnant about Arminianism. It loves itself.

God simply had Paul write vss 6 - 8 to prove that the children of the promise (that He would remove the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh Jer. 31) would not be those who were born into the blood line of Israel. Instead, they would be those of God’s choosing. He will have mercy on whom He has mercy and harden those whom He will harden. Individually!

There are so very many other errors in your post, I don’t have the time to address each one. But, they are clearly an Arminian bent, with a strong semi-pelagian angle. This has long ago been debunked as heresy. Check your own history.

They're both true, dependent upon one's frame of reference. God has known what "happened" (interesting shift of tense there, that actually strikes to the heart of the matter) since the foundation of the world. God has acted upon this world and continues to do so. The ultimate outcome is not in question, never was and never can be, from God's frame of reference.

However, "free will" is still in force, on an individual level. Your decisions are yours alone. You may be influenced by a variety of factors, and actually will be. There is choice, and there will be choice until the day you die.

That the result of those choices and influences has always been known does not change the fact that choice exists. That's the peace I've made with the two seemingly competing views within Chrisitanity, and there is truth there.

I've known and loved many good Christians, within and without my family, who sincerely believed one or the other, and I won't disagree. I've just come to the belief that either is true, but only in part. God is God, all knowing and unchanging. Man is man, temporal and changeable.

Determinism, in the form of Calvinist thought, speaks to the nature of God, all knowing and unchangeable. Free will, in the form of Armenianism, speaks to the nature of man, with limited knowledge and highly changeable.

Here is what I see in Romans 9:

10"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;"

Paul is talking about Rebecca who conceived by Isaac, the twins, Jacob and Esau.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Paul is saying here that Isaac was elected (election) according to the purposes of God, before he was born. And he qualifies this by saying it was not of works that God did so. This is a clear demonstration of God's Sovereignty in Election.

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

This is predestination if I ever saw it. Esau will serve Jacob. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

God loves the elect (Jacob in this case) and lavishes his love upon them to his own purposes and will. The rest get God's general grace, His testimony through Creation (Romans 1) but God hates sin and they are left to their own and increasing reprobation.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

The logical question then, is this fair? Was it fair to elect Jacob and not Esau?

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Paul affirms God's choice to have mercy on whom He wishes and to have Compassion on those He wishes (extending the argument) to all the elect and by exclusion those whom he does not.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Here Paul affirms it is not of man's will that this happens, but of God's will that "showeth mercy".

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Paul brings up an additional argument with regard to Pharaoh that was killing the baby Hebrew boys. He says this is a declaration of is Sovereignty and Name!

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Paul says Paroah was "Hardened" (same word is used in Exodus) by God for His own purposes. I believe God did this by removing limitations to sin and arrogance causing Pharaoh to 'Harden'. For if God were to do so directly He would be the cause of Sin. But since "there is no darkness in Him" (no sin), I believe God allowed Pharaoh simply to sink by the gravity of His own sin.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Now Paul extends the Argument to all with the word "who"

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

Paul goes back to God's sovereignty and the fact that God created us for His own purposes (the potter and the clay).

Most folks ignore God's Sovereignty in Romans 9 because most just can't handle it. Like all of God's word, it has to be taken by faith.

Election, Adoption, Predestination, God's choice, Sovereignty, mercy and compassion are all here.

Another set of Chapters (Not just verses) is Ephesians 1,2 in which God's Election, Adoption, Predestination, Choice, Sovereignty, mercy and compassion are found again.

So I exhort the readers to look deeper into these Biblical Words and not to shy or try to explain them away.

“God could not possibly know what happened tomorrow, if “free will” was actually true.”

False. Foreknowledge is not fore-compulsion.

“Foreknowledge implies foreordination. Foreordination implies Predestination.”

No. When I was overseas, AFN would play the football games late. If I listened to the news on the radio, I knew what the score would be, but I would not compel it.

“This has long ago been debunked as heresy. Check your own history.”

No, it has not. CALVINISTS call it heresy. But then, Calvinists reject the Gospel: Repent, and believe. Saved by grace, thru faith.

No. When I was overseas, AFN would play the football games late. If I listened to the news on the radio, I knew what the score would be, but I would not compel it.

A compelling argument, would you not say, Dutch?