Posted on 11/07/2011 7:57:34 AM PST by marshmallow
“Nice try but Catholicism is 90% tradition and 10% scripture.”
Untrue.
“There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church—but there are millions who hate what they mistakenly think the Catholic Church teaches.”
Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
My eyes and ears work.
They tell me it’s tradition.
You have (apparently, seemingly) shown that you do not care to understand Scripture, in context.
Several times I have provided the sentence, just a couple of verses later, where Jesus explains this difficult teaching to his disciples. He states:
“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”
That, FatherofFive, is Jesus’ explanation. Eating physical bread/flesh “is no help at all.” Nourishment instead is found in Christ, in His Word.
But you refuse to accept the words of Jesus. Instead, you rely on the teachings of your denomination. You choose the physical and temporal, rather than the spiritual and eternal.
If you’re unable to grasp the clear teaching of Scripture, I’m not sure how fruitful our conversation can ever be.
“My eyes and ears work.”
I am not going to let this devolve into an unseemly argument.
I’m just going to say that human beings have a history of getting things wrong. Just the other day I caught myself doing something that I criticize other people for.
“...for having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information or fuller consideration to change opinions even on important subjects which I once thought right but found to be otherwise...”
Benjamin Franklin
What did Jesus call the wine after blessing it? Fruit of the vine, or blood? What does Paul call the bread - bread, or flesh?
“When Christ said “This is my Body” I believe Him. It is you who deny the clear words of Scripture.”
Jesus said, 1”I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.”
So - are you literally a grapevine? Or are you a different kind of vine? Does God cut your flesh, that you might bear more fruit?
Or was Jesus speaking to adults?
We already are. :)
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe and who he was that would betray him. John 6
21 When Jesus had said these things, he was troubled in spirit; and he testified, and said: Amen, amen, I say to you, one of you shall betray me. 22 The disciples therefore looked one upon another, doubting of whom he spoke. 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him and said to him: Who is it of whom he speaketh? 25 He therefore, leaning on the breast of Jesus, saith to him: Lord, who is it? 26 Jesus answered: He it is to whom I shall reach bread dipped. And when he had dipped the bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the morsel, Satan entered into him. John 13
The betrayal of Christ was now complete. It started when Judas refused to see that Jesus fulfills the Old Covenant with the New by saying “this is My body, this is My blood.” To Judas, this was only bread and wine. Satan entered into the heart of Judas that he had conquered with doubt about the word “IS”
Paul later talks about the dangers of not believing Christ’s words:
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread, 24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. 30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you: and many sleep. 31 But if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Many are weak, infirmed and dead in spirit for not believing.
Indeed, the devil is happy when people deny the real presence in the Eucharist:
Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians:not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.” –Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391
Christ was speaking to adults, and still is. Some refuse to listen. They refused then, and left him, and refuse now, and think they are following him.
“the devil entered Judas when not believing he had to eat the flesh of Christ.”
Really? What does the scripture say?
In John 6, the problem is not flesh, but spirit. Judas did not believe, any more than did the false disciples who followed Jesus because of the miracles he did.
“To Judas, this was only bread and wine.”
To Jesus, it was only wine.
“26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Notice, AFTER Jesus blessed it, what does he call it? “this fruit of the vine”. Not, “My flesh”, but “this fruit of the vine”. The wine was still wine. At least, that is what Jesus said.
And the bread?
Read what Paul said again.
26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
Bread.
But what about discerning the body?
Read the context.
“17But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.”
The Corinthians were using the Lord’s Supper as a time of drinking and partying. They had no care for one another - the body of Christ.
In the next chapter Paul writes, “12For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”
But the Corinthians were using it as a time of despise each other: “Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing?”
They did not recognize their unity in Christ. “27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.”
They also did not recognize the serious spiritual meaning here.
“Do this in remembrance of me.”
Those who used it for partying were despising the sacrifice of Jesus, and making light of what God did to save us. That was ALSO despising the body and blood of Christ - not because the bread was flesh, for Paul calls it bread - but because they did not appreciate what Christ had done for them.
“Do this in remembrance of me”. Not, “Do this, because it IS me”. Remember.
If we were participating in a perpetual, never-ending sacrifice of Jesus - as Catholics maintain - then we would not be ‘remembering’ but ‘doing’. You remember something that is in the past, not something that is ongoing.
And that is in line with what scripture says:
“27He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself....25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself....12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” - Hebrews
Unless you wish to throw Hebrews out of the scripture, there really is no getting around it. There is not a sacrifice that we continuously participate in. It is over. Once for all. “Offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins” - what happens? Is it ongoing? No: “he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.”
It is over. We remember his sacrifice, but we do NOT participate in it again. We remember the past, not the present.
Oh - and Jesus calls the believers vines. Branches. You still haven’t told me if you take that literally - are you wood? Does God lop off a limb, to make you grow more?
Jesus also said, “9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.” So...what kind of door is Jesus? Is his flesh wood, or is he a steel door?
“12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world.”
Is Jesus the Sun?
About John the Baptist he said, “35He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.” Was John a tiki lamp?
Mr Rogers — I’ve found that efforts to inform Roman Catholics are typically fruitless, since the bonds they have with their denomination are so tight, such a significant part of who they are. They aren’t primarily “Christians,” but “Catholics.”
By adopting a biblical/spiritual understanding of Communion, they would be rejecting a foundational doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.
Their world and the trust they’d developed for the Roman Catholic system, as they’ve come to see it, would fall apart. And all they’d be left with is ... Christ. It takes a brave person to directly trust in Christ alone for salvation and fullness of life.
I close with a truth that drives Roman Catholics into a state of cognitive dissonance, who see “tasting Christ” as the act of consuming His physical flesh and blood: “Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!”
“What?!” they ask. “After eating His skin we’re supposed to crawl inside His carcass and hide?”
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