About Joseph Smith (The OTHER World Series -

MormonFAQ.com ^

[Colofornian]

SNIP

In later visions and revelations, angelic visitors revealed lost teachings and authority to Joseph.

The first of these was the angel Moroni, a deceased prophet of the ancient Americas. He prepared Joseph for 4 years...

SNIP

[Colofornian]

You know, the Flying Inmans are not shy in going to Mormon sources to allow the Mormons to speak for themselves about what they believe.

This thread is another example of this.

From the Mormon source: ...the angel Moroni, a DECEASED prophet...

Do you realize that Smith -- and Mormons across the board -- say, in effect, that a "ghost" visited Joseph Smith as the very jumpstart of Mormonism!

[Colofornian]

Joseph Smith’s nephew, Joseph F. Smith, once claimed in a book published by the Mormon church’s top leadership that the founder of Mormonism ”did did not claim he was in communication with wicked men or demons from the lower regions. He claimed he was in communications with Moroni…” (Gospel Doctrine, 2:287, 1971)

First question: How did the founder of Mormonism attempt to distinguish between ghosts, demons, angels, and Satan?
Second question: Was it true that Joseph Smith never claimed that Satan appeared to him?

Let’s cover the second question first:

In E.D. Howe's 1834 book Mormonism Unvailed, Mormon apostate Ezra Booth claimed in an affidavit that Joseph Smith said that the devil once "appeared to him in the same form" as an angel.

Booth said Smith related that the angel came "as having the appearance of a 'tall, slim, well built, handsome man, with a bright pillar upon his head.'" The devil then supposedly appeared to Smith "in the same form, excepting upon his head he had a 'black pillar,' and by this mark he was able to distinguish him from the former."

So this leads into the first question: How did the founder of Mormonism attempt to distinguish between ghosts, demons, angels, and Satan?

’Discernment’ lesson #1 from Joseph Smith as to how you can distinguish between demons, ghosts, angels and any other spirits:

Per Smith, it was the color of the pillar (bright vs. black).

Now do we have to rely upon Booth’s hearsay evidence to believe that Joseph Smith was into “unorthodox” means of testing the spirits? Did Joseph Smith provide any direct evidence on this question?

The answer is a definitive ‘yes’! (At least twice)

You see, Joseph Smith covered this” issue” with SEVERAL references in his book Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith…a book of Smith excerpts put together by a Mormon “prophet” – Joseph Fielding Smith. This book was published in 1938.

More on that next post!

[Colofornian]

What happened in the 1830s and early 1840s re: ‘spirit’ manifestations that Smith said were happening RIGHT IN the Mormon church?

"Soon after the Gospel was established in Kirtland...many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained; men ran out doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 213-214)

There we go. Smith openly says “many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen…men ran out doors under the influence of this spirit…one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air…” -- and that ball almost led that man to his death!

[Interesting that some modern accounts talk about “ghosts” as a “ball of light” flying in the air!]

Well that was Mormonism ala 1830s. What about into the early 1840s?

Obviously these spirits were having their way with early Mormons. So did it stop by a dozen years into the early church?

No! By 1842, Smith was still saying: "Or who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints?" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 204)

Smith then related point blank that: There have also been ministering angels IN THE CHURCH which were OF SATAN appearing as an angel of light. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 214)

Smith then went on to describe an entity appearing to a New York woman. So Smith then came up with…

’Discernment’ lesson #2 from Joseph Smith as to how you can distinguish between demons, ghosts, angels and any other spirits:

Many true things were spoken by this personage, and many things that were false. How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By the color of his hair; that is one of the signs that he can be known by..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Deseret News Press, 1938, pp. 214-215)

Ah, the “color of his hair” is key, eh? Does this sound like a “prophet” of God to you?

Ah, but we’re not done.

’Discernment’ lesson #3 from Joseph Smith as to how you can distinguish between demons, ghosts, angels and any other spirits:

4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. 5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand...8 If it be the devil• as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel• anything; you may therefore detect him. 9 These are three grand keys• whereby you may know whether any administration is from God. (From Lds Doctrine & Covenants 129)

You see. Joseph Smith realized that the dead could reappear – and appear as angels. He knew this. He had to justify in his own mind which entity appeared to him. It was the same thing with Mohammed, who would go into a cave and receive visions. Mohammed was 100% convinced it was jinn (demons) who were appearing to him. But then a nominal Christian relative of his wife convinced Mohammed that the visions were of an angel, and not jinn.

So in Smith’s case, he justified continued contact with this entity by claiming he was able to distinguish spirits by simply just “shaking hands” with the ghost, demon, angel or alien – and that was enough per Joseph Smith!

[Colofornian]

Mormons tend to have nothing to do with the cross. As a icon replacement, Mormons elevate the so-called "angel" Moroni to the highest place on their temples.

Of course, underlying all of the Mormon early visions, therefore, is the identity of Moroni.

In justifying this spirit-entity, Moroni, it led to Smith presenting a MAJOR revelational heresy re: angels.
You see, Joseph Smith, when he tried to convince his first wife by "revelation" that polygamy was "A-OK"...began teaching that some men -- upon getting "out of the world" (D&C 132:15) -- "are appointed angels in heaven" (D&C 132:16).

If you believe some men become angels, that is a HUGE error! (The Bible, nor the Book of Mormon teaches this!)

Men become angels? [Sounds a bit like the Jehovah's Witness belief that Jesus was an angel who became a man and a god (god with small "g")].

The revelational problem with this -- and why Mormons flunk Biblical theology on angels -- is that the Old Testament clearly teaches that...
...angels are distinct from humans (see Psalm 8:4-5)
-- and furthermore, angels don't die (see Luke 20:36).

[Colofornian]

Recent the OTHER World Series thread posts from recent days:
* Letter from Heber C. Kimball on the Early Lancashire work dated 2 Sep 1837 [LDS Demon possession]
* Speaking of ghosts… [The OTHER World Series...Mormon ghost stories]
* Utah Ghosts [The OTHER World Series...Haunted Utah]

The "Speaking of ghosts" includes coverage of pix of "ghosts" @ a Salt Lake City hospital and strange phenomenon @ the Mormon Missionary Training Center.

The "Utah Ghosts" mentions the location of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and one Freepers own experience there @ night...and mentions a Porter Rockwell location. Rockwell was a "bodyguard" for Mormon "prophets" -- a recognized mass murderer.

* The twilight saga [The OTHER World Series...Mormon Vampires]
* Mormon Doctrine on Shaking Hands With Spirits [The Other World Series]

* Priesthood of Joseph Smith [The OTHER World Series]

In this thread, see
^ Mormon leader quotations showing how they concede the devil was confusing them with "revelations."
^ How they encourage visitations from the dead & spirit entities -- while encouraging "personal revelations" from them...
^ See how Mormons define some deceased men as "angels" -- despite the Bible communicating just the opposite.
^ And see what Lds "apostle" Parley Pratt said about communicating with the dead -- and how Joseph Smith was a "medium" in interacting with the dead.

[Dengar01]

I’m confused what is this thread about, I was drawn to “World Series”???

[Dengar01]

Ok I am starting to get the point of this thread and I don't think this reflects positively on Free Republic. You are giving Romneybots a thread that is clearly anti-Mormon.

We don't oppose Myth because he is a Mormon, we oppose him because he is a clone to Obama.

I don't think Mormon's are devil worshipers, I had Mormon neighbors who while sometimes were cranky if we were noisy at night when I had people over, they were generally nice people.

And I did not see any demonic icons in their home, they celebrate Easter, Christmas, ect...

This just makes FR look bad IMO, but I'll leave that to the Religion Mod.

[thenewsblogger]

I think Mormons miss out on the great unifying theme of the Bible. God always was and is and will be, despite what happens with creation. God is outside of the creation because He created it. This is utterly consistent with what we see in the created order, starting with the 3K background radiation, which is nothing but an artifact of the universe coming ex nihilo.

[Colofornian]

You simply need to realize that the 19th & 20th century roots of Mormonism is quite eerie and creepy.

Mitt Romney's direct ancestor that his family into Mormonism was Orson Pratt. Both Orson and his brother, Parley P. Pratt, were Lds "apostles."

Parley Pratt is front-and-center quoted on these matters by Mormon authors even today!

For example: "...we frequently hold communication with our departed father, mother, brother, sister, son or daughter; or with the former husband or wife of our bosom..." (See Duane Crowther's book, Life Everlasting ...footnote 41 of that book)

Crowther's book is published by a well-known Mormon book publisher -- Bookcraft. Mormon John Heinerman's book, Temple Manifestations, is a similar book. Both books present MUCH in the way of spirit manifestations even in current Mormonism...and they present them in a "positive" slant.

Such accounts even make it into the syllabus of BYU courses...like Religious Education C261, Introduction to LDS Family History (Genealogy), where they speak of manifestations of supposed dead spirits.

While indeed most of these accounts don't initially involve Mormons initiating contact with these "spirits..." The reality seems to be that...
(1) By Mormon leaders sanctioning the dead appearing to their members as something "spiritual," they encourage such contact even if the examples they use are ones where the Mormons are on the receiving side.
(2) It's possible that Mormons, although not initiating contact the first time, perhaps have done so on ensuing occasions.

When you look at Crowther's book, Life Everlasting, Crowther says on pp. 249-250 that these are "good spirits" who "return to earth and converse with Mormons." How does Crowther know that's the case across the board?

Crowther goes on to claim "seven reasons" for why these "spirits" communicate with Mormons:
1. give counsel
2. give comfort
3. obtain or give information
4. serve as guardian angels
5. prepare others for death
6. summon mortals into the spirit world
7. escort the dying through the veil of death
Source: Crowther, Life Everlasting, Bookcraft, 1988, pp. 249-250

According to John Ankerberg and John Weldon, "Such teaching is in complete harmony with the teachings of mediums and spiritists everywhere. Indeed, on these points it is impossible to distinguish Mormon practice from general spiritism." (The Facts on the Mormon Church by John Ankerberg, John Weldon,& Dillon Burroughs 1991/2009 Harvest House, p. 73)

For more on this topic, see last October's thread: They See Dead People?

[Colofornian]

You are giving Romneybots a thread that is clearly anti-Mormon. We don't oppose Myth because he is a Mormon, we oppose him because he is a clone to Obama.

CURRENT polls show 17% of Evangelicals are MORE concerned about Romney's religion; 16% of Evangelicals are MORE concerned about Romney's stance on issues.

So, you're telling those 17% of Evangelicals -- 1 in every 6 -- that you're "wiping" out their convictions on this matter and it is to be censored and sequestered...and ONLY YOUR opinion is to be superimposed on this matter.

What utter gall! "we oppose him because..." is supposed to speak for EVERY one -- and no challenges to that notion are "allowed?"

[Colofornian]

A series on the OTHER World — as seen by Mormons.

[Dengar01]

A series on the OTHER World — as seen by Mormons.

Using "World Series" is like saying the other "Super Bowl". It is a hook to grab people like me who really is not interested in Mormonism. What about Satanisim? I think that is a bit more dangerous than Mormonism. I don't recall hearing about Mormons conducting ritual human sacrifice on newborns. As an evangelical I would think you would be concerned about that.

I respect your religious beliefs, I happen to be Lutheran, maybe a heathen in your opinion but that's your opinion.

My argument is that recently Free Republic has come under full fledged attack by Mitt Romney hacks claiming we all "hate Mormons". I'm suggesting that your thread is aiding their argument.

As the primary comes closer there will be many independents voting as Obama is unchallenged. I don't think trying to paint Romney as a devil worshiper helps Herman Cain. You are making Romney look like a victim by twisting their belief system.

And most religions go through reformations, my former neighbors did not engage in plural marriage, they had Christmas decorations and seemed pretty normal, besides they didn't drink alcohol, but I know many evangelical sects that are extremely strict in regards to alcohol consumption.

I will admit I am not the expert you are on religion, I do happen to have a Degree in History and a Masters and will tell you that Mormonism is a completely different religion in 2011 than what it was when the Mormons fled Illinois under Brigham Young towards Salt Lake City. While the US Government had a lot to do with it by jailing polygamists, it seemed to work with the exception of radical extremists like Warren Jeffs and he's in prison for life. And I didn't see Orrin Hatch come to his defense.

[Dengar01]

CURRENT polls show 17% of Evangelicals are MORE concerned about Romney's religion; 16% of Evangelicals are MORE concerned about Romney's stance on issues.

So, you're telling those 17% of Evangelicals -- 1 in every 6 -- that you're "wiping" out their convictions on this matter and it is to be censored and sequestered...and ONLY YOUR opinion is to be superimposed on this matter.

What utter gall! "we oppose him because..." is supposed to speak for EVERY one -- and no challenges to that notion are "allowed?"

And what about the other 66% of Evangelicals? If 1/6 are concerned about Mormonism and 1/6 are concerned about issues, where are the other 2/3? And who conducted the poll? I have many Evangelical relatives (Southern Baptist) and don't recall one single organization speaking for all Evangelicals.

[Dengar01]

And FRiend I'm not trying to censor you. You are simply "copy and pasting" from some website that clearly doesn't like Mormons, especially if you are citing a book from 1834 when I told from a strict historical standpoint Mormonism evolved as most religions do, well with the exception of those who believe in blowing people up for 72 virgins... that's another matter.

I believe I have a good read on people and I never got bad vibes from the Mormons that I have met whether they were next door neighbors or simple acquaintances. Quite frankly I fear radical Islam a heck of a lot more than Mormons. I don't recall Mormons calling for the death of all infidels.

[Colofornian]

I have many Evangelical relatives (Southern Baptist) and don't recall one single organization speaking for all Evangelicals.

Exactly. My point of my last post. YOU don't speak for all Evangelicals. (Interesting you point it out as applying to my comments; somehow it doesn't apply to yours?)

...who conducted the poll?
Here: Fox News Poll: GOP Primary Voters Propel Cain to Top of Pack

Per that article: Twenty-one percent of GOP primary voters have concerns about electing a Mormon president. Of those, twice as many cite Mormon beliefs as cite the candidate’s views. White evangelicals -- a significant voting bloc in several key GOP primaries and caucuses -- are about equally concerned about the candidate’s views (16 percent) as their religious beliefs (17 percent).

Are you going to continue to dismiss these over 1-in-5 GOP primary voters?

And what about the other 66% of Evangelicals? If 1/6 are concerned about Mormonism and 1/6 are concerned about issues, where are the other 2/3?

Even with the "other" 2/3rds of Evangelicals...a Rasmussen poll from 5 years ago revealed that 92% of Evangelicals say a candidate's religion is either very important or somewhat important.

So what are you going to do? Scold 92% of Evangelicals and 78% of Republicans?

Here was the info on that poll: Election 2008: 43% Would Never Vote for Mormon Candidate (Rasmussen Poll)]. According to that excerpt: The Rasmussen Reports survey found that 35% say that a candidate's faith and religious beliefs are very important in their voting decision. Another 27% say faith and religious beliefs are somewhat important. Ninety-two percent (92%) of Evangelical Christian voters consider a candidate's faith and beliefs important. On the partisan front, 78% of Republicans say that a candidate's faith is an important consideration, a view shared by 55% of Democrats. However, there is also a significant divide on this topic within the Democratic Party. Among minority Democrats, 71% consider faith and religious beliefs an important consideration for voting. Just 44% of white Democrats agree.

So…what % of the following groups found that a candidate’s faith and religious beliefs are an important consideration for voting?
(1) Americans: 62%
(2) Evangelical Christians: 92%
(3) Republicans: 78%

[Gadsden1st]

Any “Religion” that resorts to changing the normal meaning of common words to promote itself has a problem. The use of the term “ancient Americas” turns a discussion about the merits of this belief system into a joke.

[Colofornian]

My argument is that recently Free Republic has come under full fledged attack by Mitt Romney hacks claiming we all "hate Mormons".

So what? Are you so beholden to the "world" that you won't speak out vs. that which challenges the cross?

I don't know which Lutheran version you are, but the ELCA includes abortion as part of its healthcare coverage for churchworkers. It also accepts homosexual pastors. So should grassroots ELCA members simply "stay silent" on these matters?

Even if you are not ELCA, would you tell ELCA members not to speak out vs. homosexuality because that can lead to a "full fledged attack by homosexual activist hacks claiming we all 'hate homosexuals'"?

Really? You mean you can't separate moral opposition to a lifestyle from so-called "hate?"

Do you advise Christians across the board to simply remain silent on homosexuality because of how that might be interpreted in the public square?

How squeamish are you on speaking out on the truth?

[Dengar01]

And ten years ago people said America would never elect a black President. I'm not going to argue with you, you are very fanatical in your beliefs, that is fine. Your logic is very difficult to follow in that poll as it isn't polling simply Evangelical Christians, it is polling GOP voters.

And like I said it doesn't include the millions of Independents who will vote in the GOP Primary since Barry is unopposed. Anyways, sorry I fell into your thread, I'm a sports fan and you suckered me in using "World Series" which most people associate with baseball not Mormon bashing. But whatever, to each their own.

When the LDS declares a jihad against infidels I guess I'll start to worry then, but the again I'm not voting for Huntsman and Romney, not because of their religion but because of their liberal positions. I am a fan of Glenn Beck, he was right on about the developing Caliphate. I think he is a visionary and he happens to be a Mormon convert. And I don't think he is an evil person nor do most of the people on this site.

But you are free to hate whoever you want in this country.

I just don't like your hatred of Mormons associated with this website, because mark my words, every thread is backed up on Google and someone is going to come from some hole one day and use your "copy and paste" thread as a tool to attack the credulity of Free Republic.

Bill O'Reilly did it years ago, manipulating our position on race by taking the title of a thread (which was the title of an article) and used that to claim FR was a right wing hate site.

I don't find this thread helpful and sad to be associated with someone with such a hateful heart yet claiming to be an Evangelical.

Regardless, I'd appreciate if you don't use bogus title's to sucker in people to read your propaganda.

[Vendome]

Heretic!

/S

[Colofornian]

I just don't like your hatred of Mormons associated with this website...

And if you are ELCA, it's exactly attitudes like this that has led to continued abortions being paid for my tithing plate offerings...and homosexual pastors in the pulpit.

The liberal wing of Lutheranism has simply catered to not wanting to be "labeled" by those who argue-by-labeling (the ad hominen attackers in the public square).

It's this group of Christians who are thin skinned, cowardly, and fail to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 3).

In the ELCA, they can't even stand up for the offspring of their churchworkers at risk from abortions! (Paid for their offering plate $s!)