To: paladinan
Purgatory tells us Christ could not complete His work..that we need to finish it.. it gives comfort to those that tell "little white lies" or have their palms read.. or that were disrespectful to their parents or that cursed .. ..it tells people that the Holiness of God is not so offended by "small" offenses and He will allow you to pay for them yourself.. you do not need Christ for that ..what a comfort to those that love their sin...
Can you tell me what Christ accomplished on the cross?? Were any saved? Or did Christ make heaven a possibility for men again ??
To: RnMomof7
Re: the "Purgatory replaces Hell" issue: all right, I'll take that as good enough. (I'd note that a few other commenters made the same claim, but without your qualifier; but that's their issue, and not yours.) Thank you for clarifying!
You wrote:
Purgatory tells us Christ could not complete His work.
I don't see how that follows from any accurate portrayal of Purgatory. Every "work" completed in Purgatory (i.e. each soul purified) is made possible by Christ, and Christ alone! Did you suppose that the Church assumed Purgatory to have "power" of its OWN, apart from God?
that we need to finish it..
Not in the sense of Purgatory; as I mentioned earlier, the souls in Purgatory are utterly unable to "help themselves" in any way at all (unlike us, on earth, who--through the merits earned by Christ and given to us, so long as we cooperate with them, and do not merely bury them in a handkerchief [cf. Matthew 25:14-30]--can cooperate with Christ's grace and appropriate His Mercy). Those in Purgatory must rely on the "slow" purifying action of the flames, or else on the prayers and sacrifices of the rest of the Communion of Saints which were offered on their behalf.
it gives comfort to those that tell "little white lies" or have their palms read.. or that were disrespectful to their parents or that cursed ..
Yes, and no. On the one hand, God's Mercy (whether in general, or in its manifestations--such as Purgatory) is very comforting, indeed; it assures us that God can forgive even the worst of our sins, that "He remembers we are dust" [Psalm 103:14], that He knows our weakness enough to pray, "Father, forgive them; they know not what they do!" [Luke 23:34, etc.], and that some sins are more severe than others (cf. 1 John 5:15-17). No, in the sense that it does not "excuse sin" or make it any more pleasing to God; if I, as a child, had slit my own throat with a knife, it would have been far worse than had I slashed my face with the same knife... but I'd be a fool to think that my mother would have been blase, nonchalant, or (God forbid) "pleased" with what I did. The fact that a sin is not necessarily mortal does not mean that it does not offend Him; the fact that a thoughtless insult to a friend does not break the friendship does not erase the wound in the friendship, thereby. Does that clarify? It seems as if you worry that the very idea of Purgatory would allow people to be casual about sin; and that is not so, any more than Protestants believe that "assurance of salvation" is God's permission to sin with abandon! Some individuals may presume thusly, but that is their particular sin, not the fault of the doctrine.
..it tells people that the Holiness of God is not so offended by "small" offenses
Well... can you see how common sense, in addition to 1 John 5:15-17, Luke 12:47-48, etc., makes this plausible... and without minimizing sin, itself? All sin is evil, but some crimes are worse than others.
and He will allow you to pay for them yourself..you do not need Christ for that ..
That is impossible. See above.
what a comfort to those that love their sin...
That's hardly the purpose of Purgatory, friend; anyone with that sinful attitude would need to be purified of THAT, as well (providing that the love of sin did not translate directly into a hatred of God... for which Hell would be the only destination, unless repentance followed). One could easily say the same of "once saved, always saved" (i.e. "what a comfort for those who love their sin!"), with equal illogic. (Martin Luther even taught variations of that: "sin boldly, but believe more boldly still!")
Can you tell me what Christ accomplished on the cross??
I can try... though I have some guesses as to where you'd like to lead me, given your apparent "once-saved-always-saved" views...
When Christ died on the cross, He atoned for every sin of every man from every time; the infinite debt which we owed, the infinite breach in our relationship with the infinite God, was paid and healed and restored. The gates of Heaven, which Adam's sin closed, were opened to us again.
There's only one point I'd like to anticipate: while Christ opened the gates, He bids us to walk through them... and He will not force anyone thither. If I fail to use my talents, if I fail to love my neighbour, etc., I can expect My Lord, standing at those open gates, to say to me: "Depart from Me, you accursed! For I was hungry, and you gave Me no food, etc." Good works are utterly necessary for our necessary participation in our salvation; it isn't given to us DESPITE what we might do. If we reject it, or if we even neglect it to excess, we will lose it. Knowing that a gift can be ignored or thrown away does not deny the fact that a gift was given, after all.
Were any saved?
Yes, in the sense that salvation was no longer closed to them. But if they reject or neglect that gift, they can lose it.
394 posted on
10/30/2011 2:54:03 PM PDT by
paladinan
(Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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