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To: Judith Anne; Natural Law; Cronos; D-fendr; daniel1212; metmom; smvoice; boatbums
Scripture is very clear that it’s faith that saves.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. “ -John 3:16

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” –Ephesians 2:8,9

It is what you understanding of what faith is that causes dependence on works. Even Devils and Demons have faith that God exists. They also encourage people to do good works to deceive those who fall for it to think it’s they (the people who are doing the good works) who are good. An example of what the faith that saves means one could compare faith in the dollar. If you truly have faith in the dollar you will hold on to that dollar with faith that it will buy the things you want. If you do not have “faith” in the dollar you will exchange that dollar for something you think will retain value to purchase things you want or need such as gold for instance.

Faith that saves is consistent, ongoing reliance on Jesus as our salvation. What that faith produces are actions that stem from a changed heart. Those actions are proof or evidence that our faith is real. Dependence on works for salvation proves that we did not have faith that the sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient for our salvation. On the other hand, if we don’t have the actions described, it proves that what faith we had wasn’t real.

589 posted on 10/27/2011 8:54:54 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
Faith that saves is consistent, ongoing reliance on Jesus as our salvation. What that faith produces are actions that stem from a changed heart. Those actions are proof or evidence that our faith is real.

I agree completely.

Dependence on works for salvation proves that we did not have faith that the sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient for our salvation. On the other hand, if we don’t have the actions described, it proves that what faith we had wasn’t real.

Again, I agree. Where I hae a problem with your post is that Devils and Demons encourage people to do good works. As Christ said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand" Matthew 12:25 when He Himself was accused of doing a good work (casting out demons) by the power of the devil. It can't happen that good works come from devils and demons. At the root of every good work is faith in Christ, trust in God, and desire to please Him.

592 posted on 10/27/2011 9:07:37 AM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of god, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death)
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To: CynicalBear

No need to ping me to your views and opinions on these matters.

I’m taking your advice on your posts and not relying on a fallible man.


607 posted on 10/27/2011 10:37:41 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: CynicalBear
Faith that saves is consistent, ongoing reliance on Jesus as our salvation. What that faith produces are actions that stem from a changed heart. Those actions are proof or evidence that our faith is real. Dependence on works for salvation proves that we did not have faith that the sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient for our salvation. On the other hand, if we don’t have the actions described, it proves that what faith we had wasn’t real.

I think sometimes people ignore what Jesus said all those times he used the word "believe". They read in Scripture where the demons are said to believe and tremble and presume that Jesus meant something much more than that. As to demons believing, I don't see that they have any choice - they've seen it since they were first created and to deny God exists would be ridiculous. But Jesus did not come to redeem demons, only mankind, because only humans can be redeemed. For demons, they made their choice already and there's no going back.

We also should understand that "belief" is more than simple agreement or what's called "head knowledge". Since we have not seen God, as all the angels (fallen or good) have, to really believe is also a step of faith. We are exhibiting faith in what we do not see but we are stepping outside of logical proof into the realm of faith and then, hope. So whenever Jesus said believe and you will have eternal life, he was talking about that stepping out and trusting, accepting what God says, and that is way more important to him than what we DO. The beauty of this is after we do make this step, God proves himself to us, reveals himself, so that we know that we know. This is hard for some people to understand because they claim they will only believe if they have tangible proof. They say "seeing is believing". But God says "believing is seeing" and like you said, our lives are changed because we ARE new creations in Christ.

708 posted on 10/27/2011 7:36:40 PM PDT by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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