What the Church means by Purgatory

Fallible Blogma ^ | October 21, 2011

[NYer]

Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.

Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).

Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.

What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video

This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.

Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.

The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.

View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.

[Iscool]

Here’s another one dilemma:

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Compare that to this:

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

You can't keep James and throw out Paul's epistles...James can not be your proof text while disregarding Paul...You must reconcile them both...

[Iscool]

not everyone is fully sanctified and every one -- mature and immature is to be tested by his works after he dies;

Nope...Every mans WORK will be tested...You gotta read the fine print...

[Iscool]

After all, when someone is burning in hell for eternity, it’d be nice for them to think that it’s really purgatory and that some day it will all be over.

I never thought there could be a positive about going to hell...Guess I was wrong...

It is kinda scary that their description of purgatory(for the most part) far more resembles hell than it does heaven...Sure glad I'm not going to either...

[Judith Anne]

God didn't make it so simple that all you had to do was read a verse or a group of verses to understand what he really had to say...

Where is tha in scripture?

2 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Now you won't find that command in any Catholic bible...And for good reason...

Wrong! You will find that in the expected place in the Douay Rheims Bible. It's difficult to trust someone to tell the truth in a discussion when they have no regard for accuracy in the little things, like whether or not a verse is in the "Catholic" Bible.

[Iscool]

Part of the sin of presumption is thinking God must forgive you even if you don’t repent, no matter how big of a jerk you are

How about if I'm just a little jerk, with little sins???

[D-fendr]

Thankfully, neither you nor I will be the judge of that.

[Iscool]

Wrong! You will find that in the expected place in the Douay Rheims Bible. It's difficult to trust someone to tell the truth in a discussion when they have no regard for accuracy in the little things, like whether or not a verse is in the "Catholic" Bible.

Why are you always so mean???

I should have said 'modern' Catholic versions...My err...

Douay-Rheims Bible
Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

I suppose it's close enough to the original that we can accept it...

[Natural Law]

"I suppose it's close enough to the original that we can accept it..."

I wonder how they can keep a straight face when they say things like this. The irony is that every affirmation of Sola Scriptura, and every "show me in Scripture" demand to attempt to refute Catholicism is an appeal to the authority of the Catholic episcopacy that established the Canon and the Magisterium that interpreted the Scripture for the establishment of Christian orthodoxy. They would have us believe that the Church has an on / off switch that only a Protestant knows when and how to activate and then shriek and insult when we can't take them seriously.

[Judith Anne]

Why are you always so mean???

Let's not make this about me, how 'bout?

[Judith Anne]

I have no idea how they do it (keep a straight face).

I certainly can’t, when I read some of their posts.

[D-fendr]

The "easy believerism" is to just "say this", "do that", "don't do the other", and voila'!

No, easy believerism is just believe this statement and you'll go to heaven.

Similar to; If you believe there are green unicorns, I'll give you a million dollars. This is only a problem if you don't think I'll really pay up.

If, instead, I said: If you really believe in green unicorns, you'll walk into the desert without water and wait for one to give you a ride out.

As we see in scripture, believing in Jesus Christ is much more than simple intellectual assent and much more than thinking only about yourself, which is what I'm referring to as "easy believerism."

[Alamo-Girl]

If I may give another example: putting one's fingers in his ears, closing his eyes, humming and jumping up and down all the while saying to himself "I believe" does not make it so.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. - Hebrews 11:1

The person who actually takes God seriously, who actually believes Him will behave that way, e.g. no minister who actually believes God IS would defy Him by engaging in homosexual behavior (Romans 1, etc.)

And I do see an important difference between believing God IS and trusting Him.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. - James 2:9

The one who trusts God will walk into a den of hungry lions if God leads him there. You won't catch him doubting God, complaining, being fearful or worrying for he has surrendered to God's will. (Hebrews 11)

Of course we don't have to deal with execution for our faith (yet) but there is other evidence whereby we can know whether we are trusting Him, i.e. following Him (Romans 8, John 15, I Cor 2, etc.):

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

If others do not see all of these Spiritual fruits in our lives then we are still self-serving and have more to give up.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. - Philippians 2:12

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

[Natural Law]

"If others do not see all of these Spiritual fruits in our lives then we are still self-serving and have more to give up."

What then are we to make of those, Protestant and Catholic alike, who utilize these threads for nothing more than a platform and venue in which to insult, ridicule and inflame using the most profane and fallacious language and imagery. Those who reference refuted sources and who repeat any unsubstantiated rumor that paints their perceived antagonists in the worst light? Those who demand answers again and again and again yet refuse to accept or acknowledge them? Will you rebuke them equally regardless of religious affiliation or in the tradition of the Religion Forum adhere to the unchristian principle of "my enemies enemy is my friend"?

[metmom]

Nor is it easy to completely trust God and stop trying to add our own good works to the mix to impress Him, or please Him or to appease Him, or whatever.

We KNOW we’re sinners and that wrong doing deserves justice. That’s where guilt comes in. All our works are attempt to assuage our guilt, which they cannot do. But it sure feels good to think that we’ve done something to earn or deserve some forgiveness for the wrong we’ve done. Human nature just can’t seem t help trying anyway when all that’s required is to throw ourselves on the mercy of the court.

What adding works is like doing is insisting on paying the penalty for a crime that you’ve been pardoned for. If you got a speeding ticket which was then forgiven, would you still insist on paying it anyway and getting the points on your license and hiking up your insurance?

Or would you go do some unrelated to the crime volunteer work to pay it off which it wouldn’t because it’s not the appropriate penalty for the crime?

[Alamo-Girl]

Will you rebuke them equally regardless of religious affiliation...

I used the first person plural - "we" - in my exhortation which of course includes me along with all other Christians which means "regardless of [Christian] religious affiliation."

Your challenge above uses the second - "you" - and "third - them" - person which I cannot do because I choose to not judge anyone.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. - Matthew 7:1-2

Anything I find in someone else, God will find in me.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. - Romans 2:1

His ways are marvelous. Praise God!!!

God's Name is I AM.

[smvoice]

You are so right.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God." 1 Cor. 1:18.

"the finished work of Christ? that's just too simple. It cannot POSSIBLY be. How can the cross possibly be enough to satisfy a just God? Justice demands penalty and payment. Therefore I MUST be penalized and pay my due...."

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased GOd by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Cor. 1:21.

"But why? why would God save someone with absolutely no strings attached?"

"That no flesh should glory in his presence." 1 Cor. 1:29.

That is why. If there is anything WE could do to save ourselves, then we would have reason to glory in his presence. It's not about us, it's about Him. His glory. His plan. His grace. His free gift. His Son. His finished work.

[Natural Law]

"The person who actually takes God seriously, who actually believes Him will behave that way, e.g. no minister who actually believes God IS would defy Him by engaging in homosexual behavior (Romans 1, etc.) And I do see an important difference between believing God IS and trusting Him."

That was a very Clitonesque dodge of a very direct question. We all, including you, are asked to judge and to reject wrong as a part of everyday life. To the same extent and in the same manner as you used "The Person", "I" and "them" will you rebuke or renounce all who use the Religion Forum as I described?

"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?" - Luke 12:57

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your example and skillful explanation of the subject.

[D-fendr]

Thanks, I think you exemplified the thinking of ‘easy believerism’ in your post.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!