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To: proe
The Victimization card has been played so ofter by so many groups that it has lost its meaning.

Morality is not subject to your nonsensical "Laws of Attribution."

6 million + Jews exterminated by a system founded upon the filthy anti-Semitism espoused in the theology of the likes of Justin Martyr, Augustine, Origen, and Martin Luther, and then devastatingly expressed in European society in the 1930s trump your "culture."

Oh, and if you are quick about it, you might find some holocaust survivors that can demonstrate a "victimization" that meets your silly "law." But of course, if you wait, they will all be dead.

Which begs the question: if you commit genocide, does it "lose its meaning" if you kill all the people in the group? After all, then no one can "personally demonstrate" that they have been harmed.
24 posted on 10/21/2011 9:19:27 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat

From the Roman Catechism (Catechism of the Council of Trent)

sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured …We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt.

And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, “None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.


25 posted on 10/21/2011 10:25:50 AM PDT by Pope Pius XII (There's no such thing as divorce)
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To: Tzfat; Tax-chick; Dr. Sivana; Nachum; SJackson
Tzfat:

As a Catholic, I will leave it to Lutherans and reformed Christians generally to defend Luther.

You reference what you call "the filthy anti-Semitism espoused in the theology of the likes of Justin Martyr, Augustine, Origen..." Would you care to provide the details of such charges? I doubt that most FReepers are any more familiar with such claims than am I. Substantiate or withdraw the scurrilous editorial.

St. Justin Martyr apparently engaged in a written debate in which he disagreed with Judaism and is said to have attacked Judaism. He was beheaded by Roman authorities in about 165. At the time of his martyrdom, Christianity was under Roman persecution for sharing the Jewish reluctance to engage in pagan worship of emperors. Did St. Justin Martyr claim that Judaism was somehow incomplete or that Jesus was rejected by His fellow Jews? If so, that is no more anti-Semitism than is any other theological disagreement (and a milder form of offensiveness than parts of your #21).

I make no claims to scholarship on this subject. However, in a quick study, I have found no references to anti-Semitism by Origen. I am at a loss to review the massive works of St. Augustine to see what it is in his writings that may have drawn your colorful objections.

In any event, it is a bit much to somehow attribute the Holocaust as you suggest to the influence of St. Justin Martyr, St. Augustine and Origen on 1930's Europe and the reign of those pagans who ruled Germany and its brief and brutal empire in the Third Reich.

There was a great Conservative Jewish scholar Saul Lieberman (d. 1983) who apparently may have studied on the dispute between St. Justin Martyr and Judaism but, if so, there seems no easy reference to his work in its details. He was the general editor of Judaica acting through Yale University.

When you are baited by someone who wants to diminish the very real 20th century suffering of Jews and the genocide that they suffered by trying to substitute the self-inflicted suffering of Palestinians held in concentration camps by their own, you might want to refrain from responding as though such a repulsive argument were somehow mainstream Christianity much less Catholicism.

Americans of all faiths and none liberated the camps (much later than should have been the case but that is on FDR). Few have expressed regrets over doing so. Most Europeans of the 1930s would have been altogether ignorant of St. Justin Martyr and of Origen. Most would have heard of St. Augustine and of Martin Luther but few would have read the written work of either. It was not some golden age of scholarship on matters religious.

I have had the privilege of becoming acquainted with one elderly Holocaust survivor who had arrived at Auschwitz as a strong 19-year old man in about 1939. He and I had a very lengthy conversation one afternoon when my family had been invited by his daughter's family for a Passover Seder. He dug the graves of the victims for about five years and lived to be liberated. He came to the US after the war, met and married an American Jewish wife, established a small store to support his wife and children and died very recently. Despite all the evil that he personally witnessed at Auschwitz and his own personal sufferings there, he lacked entirely the vitriol you express against Christians and well understood that his torment did not arise from Christianity much less from St. Justin Martyr, St. Augustine and/or Origen.

We exist in anonymity on Free Republic. I feel certain that I am not personally acquainted with you and, if you have suffered personally, I am certainly not familiar with the details. OTOH, it is no more reasonable for you to blame all of Christianity with a broad brush for the very real sufferings of Jews than it was for the anti-Semites of history to act upon the infamous blood libel or to pretend to be justified by the demagogic ravings of Annas and Caiaphas.

I have not responded to your #21 on the assumption that you actually believe its contents. Jesus was certainly a Jew. He certainly resurrected. He certainly taught from Hebrew Scriptures (there were no others at the time). He was crucified by permission of the Roman governor by Roman soldiers of whatever legion and whatever ancestry. Pilate was a pillar of jello but he gets a worse rap in history than perhaps even he deserves. Pilate was a moral coward in the face of public pressure. You need not be a believer in the New Testament but it certainly disagrees with your analysis as to whether Jesus started a new religion. See particularly the Peter passage in Matthew and the New Testament generally. Also the historical evidence of Jesus includes the writings of Flavius Josephus, a contemporary, who was a Roman General but also a Jew from the Holy Land. It is remarkable and puzzling that you concede His resurrection (and capitalize His), the central belief of Christianity, but deny that He founded Christianity.

33 posted on 10/22/2011 3:35:35 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club: Burn 'em Bright!!!)
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