Replies

Well, brent13a, your answer is very high on the passion index and very low on the verification index. Lots of assertions, no grounding of them in the extant sources.

Please realize that when you make such a sweeping statement as you did in the post to which I first responded, it should be backed up with some justification.
1) Jesus never labeled Himself a Christian.
OK, no argument. He didn’t. On the other hand, a Christian is by definition a follower of Christ. So ...
2) His disciples never labeled themselves as “christians.”
No, they didn’t. But did they profess themselves to be followers of Him who said He was “the way, the truth, and the life”? I think yes. So, if we label them followers of Christ, are we wrong? I think not.
3) Regarding the first gathering of Christians and what they would have labeled themselves.
First, see above. Then, no, they didn’t. But I don’t really think you can read their minds any better than I can. The bottom line is that they followed Him and professed Him. Show how that is wrong.
4) They were all jew or proselytes.
Yup. And then the followed the promised Messiah.
5) Jesus taught from the Torah/Tanakh.
Yup. And it testified of Him, and that all who would have life must come to Him, must be His followers. (John 5:39)
6) Christianity was wholly separate from Jesus’ disciples.
Well, brent13a, that assertion will take a bit of disproving. And I just don’t think you are up to it. But then no one else is either.
7) There was no collaboration between Jerusalem and Antioch.
I see. And the proof of that is?
What you say thereafter is a bit convoluted. So, I will refrain from responding.

Well, I did not label you “batsht crazy and a cultist.” You are the one who brought it up.

I will agree with you about Mormonism and Scientology, though perhaps for different reasons. And I would certainly choose different terminology to describe them.

To each his own then. I know my history, my passion comes from the history. Just like I abhor leftist progressives rewriting history about our country's founding so goes the same for my spiritual beliefs. You can call Vermes and Ludemann crazy but within the halls of religious scholastics they are still considered giants and their work is constantly referenced.

30ad - Execution of Jesus

31ad to 69ce - establishment of James and the Jerusalem church and the original disciples there. The first assemblies of believers in Jesus' Way happen there.

50ad - Paul meets with James in Jerusalem

51ad - Paul writes his first letter/epistle

67ad - Paul dies

70ad - Destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, scattering of the 'Jerusalem Church' to various groups

71ad to 300ad - the establishment and settlement of splinter groups descended from James and the Jerusalem church (Nazarenes, Ebionites, Matteans, Nicolaitons) throughout Asia, Syria, etc.

140ad - Marcion established the first collection of Paul's letters

180ad - Irenaeus collected & accepted all Paul's letters except Philemon

300ad-330ad Emperor Constantine solidifies the labeling of heretics (nazoreans/ebionites=judaizers, etc) against the catholic church

382ad - Vetus Latina bible collective

400ad - The Latin Vulgate is published

31ad - 100ad onward, the assembly of disciples in Jerusalem taught The Way of Jesus from there. Paul's letters didn't exist yet or they weren't collected together. Paul's letters were never collected together by any of the descendants of the 'Jerusalem Church'. The same as there was never a "New Testament" bible produced by James, or the Nazoreans, the Ebionites, etc.