Posted on 10/10/2011 7:50:42 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
The news is abuzz with the question of Mormonism, cults, and Christianity.
A cult is often understood as a religious group with strange beliefs out of the cultural mainstream (which many today increasingly consider biblical Christianity). Since "cult" is difficult to define, scholars tend not to use it.
However, the question of what beliefs characterize Christianity is not a new debate, and is one we should not shy away from if words and definitions matter.
Many people are shocked at the idea that some pastors believe Mormons are not Christians-- "judgementalism" is decried and "intolerance" proclaimed. Yet, as that may be new news to some, the view that Mormons are not Christians is historic and very widely held view.
In 2007, LDS spokesman Michael Otterson provided a forthright article in the On Faith section of the Washington Post / Newsweek. He explains,
The question, "Are Mormons Christian?" is a good starting point for this discussion. When some conservative Protestants say Mormons aren't Christian, it is deeply offensive to Latter-day Saints. Yet when Latter-day Saints assert their Christianity, some of those same Christians bitterly resent it. Why? Because both sides are using the same terms to describe different things...
When someone says Mormons aren't Christian... he or she usually means that Mormons don't embrace the traditional interpretation of the Bible that includes the Trinity. "Our Jesus" is somehow different from "their Jesus." Further, they mean that some Mormon teachings are so far outside Christian orthodoxy of past centuries that they constitute almost a new religion.
Otterson is correct here. For evangelicals and others, "Christian" is more than a self-identified label. It is hard for people in tolerant America to hear, "I know you SAY you are a Christian, but you are not." Yet, basic to evangelicalism (and historic Protestantism) is that some people are Christians, some people are not, and not all people who think that they are Christians actually are.
"Christianity" is not based on what you say about yourself or your beliefs. "Christianity" must be connected to how your beliefs agree with the beliefs of biblical Christianity.
With Mormonism becoming a major topic of discussion, about a year ago LifeWay Research decided to ask Protestant pastors their view. According to our random sample, most pastors feel strongly Mormons are not Christians. After several reporters asked if we had some data, I decided to release it. You can download the full report here: Protestant Pastor Views of Mormonism.
The survey polled 1,000 American Protestant pastors asking them to respond to the statement, "I personally consider Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) to be Christians." It's a forthright question some will find offensive, but it will be an increasingly important question.
Three-quarters of Protestant pastors (75%) disagree with the statement, "I personally consider Mormons... to be Christians," including 60 percent who strongly disagree and 15 percent who somewhat disagree. Just 11 percent somewhat agree, 6 percent strongly agree and 9 percent do not know.
In other words, the view that "Mormons are not Christians" is the widely and strongly held view among Protestant pastors. That does not meant they do not respect Mormons as persons, share their values on family, and have much in common. Yet, they simply view Mormonism as a distinct religion outside of basic teachings of Christianity. Many of these pastors may know Mormons consider themselves Christians, but Protestant pastors overwhelmingly do not consider them such.
I know this is an unpleasant question to many, and one that some will use as a hammer on evangelicals, but let me encourage a different view.
The fundamental issue is: how divergent can your views be and still be a part of a faith group (in contrast to forming a new one). Can you believe, for instance, that Muhammad is not the prophet and still call yourself a Muslim? The vast majority of Muslims would say you cannot. For Christians, calling yourself a Christian while not believing that God has always existed as the triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is as inconceivable.
This is not simply a conservative evangelical Christian view. Methodists have said "the LDS Church is not a part of the historic, apostolic tradition of the Christian faith." Even Roman Catholics (hardly conservative Protestants) don't recognize LDS baptism.
As I said before, a cult is difficult to define. But Christianity has been defined a certain way for centuries. There is no reason to be shocked that devout Christians consider those with a different view of Christ as non-Christians. In the current cultural climate it may be uncomfortable, but it is anything but shocking.
Well, well, a mormon who comes close to the truth for once - in stark contrast to other mormons here. But even here you parse your words. You are careful to separate Jesus from God - knowing that in mormonese God is often used to refer to heavenly father.
But your admission points to the fact that the mormon Jesus is drastically different from the Christian Jesus, and as such is basing its claim to be Christian on a false definition of Jesus. John 1:1 makes it clear - the Word (Jesus) was God.
It further makes it clear that the mormon theology is polytheistic doesn't it bigun, because mormonism considers Jesus and the Holy Ghost to be 'gods' as well as there being and uncounted plethora of gods inhabiting the 'heavens'.
You can't avoid it - mormon definition of 'christ' is not that which is clearly found in the bible- but that which has been spouted by smith and all the other prophets to date.
Does that mean that I believe all those who call themselves "Christian" are correct in their doctrine? No it does not but it is not for me to judge them. That is left to someone FAR greater than I.
Indeed - the mormon definition presented by you denigrates Jesus and presents a false view. the bom calls all non-mormon churches 'whores' and the church of the devil - pretty judgmental to me. Did you serve a mission? Did you try to convince people that their church was apostate and the mormon church the only 'true' church? Thats judging people by mormons bigun, please be big enough to recognize that mormonism has historically judged Christianity as unchristian.
“Has Yah’shua Messiah fulfilled all prophesy?
Has everything that must happen, happened yet?
Has He come back?
Is this the new kingdom that we currently live in because Yah'shua our Messiah, the High Priest & King of Kings is ruling from His throne?
If you can answer yes to all, then “all that must happen has happened”
If you can not answer yes to all, then the doctrine you claim to be true is not as pure as those who teach it to you would like you to believe.
The way it is defined in the Bible I read is EXACTLY the way I interpret it!
Followers of Christ are Christians.
What gives YOU, any more than me, the right to define the term Christian?
“Is there room for believing that Christ was not always God? I would say there are plenty of scriptures that would lead one to believe that He increased in wisdom and stature.”
The verse about gaining in wisdom and stature deals with His human nature - not his divine nature. John 1 and Colossians makes it clear that Jesus is God and is the Creator of all things, and there is no other God.
Your view is not in line with Biblical Christianity. If you choose to continue in that belief, that is certainly your perogative, but it’s not accurate to state your belief that Jesus wasn’t always God is supported by the Bible and acceptable within the teachings of Christianity.
Christian denominations don’t debate the nature of God or Jesus! You continue the trivialize the differences between mormon teachings and Christianity as if they are minor - when in reality they are fundamental differences.
By this definition, you would also have to exclude the original anabaptist leaders like Jan Hus, who didn't buy in to the state church thing established at the time of Emperor Constantine, of which the Nicean Creed was an outgrowth.
You would also have to exclude Roger Williams, America's most famous icon of religious freedom, because he refused to join with any organized religion and specifically rejected the adoption of the Nicean Creed as a litmus test for Christianity.
Older Catholics are also aware that at one time, the Taliban Christians considered them to be a cult. (In private, many still do) But that was before it became politically incorrect to do it openly. Mormons, of course, remain fair targets for this "courageous" bunch because they vote overwhelmingly conservative.
Mark.1 [1] The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
FYI...the NT did not exist when Yah’shua our Jewish Messiah walked the earth, thus the only Scripture He taught was that which RC doctrine claims to have been abolished.
RE: So now we are defining Christianity by majority vote of the other members of the “club”?
If we cannot have a true definition of what Christianity is, then I guess, anyone can call himself a Christian and believe anything he wants about Jesus because as you say “clubs” are invalid.
David Koresh is a Christian too because “clubs” (your word, not mine ) cannot define what a Christian is.
RE: Mark.1 [1] The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
The Jewish leaders understood exactly what Jesus meant by the phrase “Son of God.” To be the Son of God is to be of the SAME NATURE as God. The Son of God is “of God.”
Mark does not contradict John, He COMPLEMENTS John.
The claim to be of the same nature as God—to in fact be God—was blasphemy to the Jewish leaders; therefore, they demanded Jesus’ death, in keeping with Leviticus 24:15. Hebrews 1:3 expresses this very clearly, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.”
In this way, Jesus is the Son of God. The Son of God *IS* God. Jesus is God made manifest (John 1:1, 14).
Since God is eternal, everlasting, no beginning, no end, Jesus Christ is UNCREATED.
As John said — The WORD ( Jesus ) WAS GOD. He was in the beginning with God and without Him, nothing was made that was made ( that includes Lucifer of course ).
Very interesting statement which I have been longing for someone to give me the Scripture that says, this is what Christianity is. Where is that word Christianity or Christian church in the Scriptures? The only words I find are ecclesia & synagogae & they merely mean assembly of people & place of assembly for any occasion without reference to any denominational labels. The great arena in Rome was called a synagogae and those that attended were called the ecclesia. Oh how man has perverted HIS Word.
RE: By this definition, you would also have to exclude the original anabaptist leaders like Jan Hus, who didn’t buy in to the state church thing established at the time of Emperor Constantine, of which the Nicean Creed was an outgrowth.
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Can you show me ANY RELIABLE SOURCE in history that shows us that Jan Hus REJECTED the Nicene Creed’s explanation of the nature of God and Jesus Christ?
His argument was against the church/state thing as you said, but he DID NOT reject essential Christian doctrine as laid down by the Historic Creeds.
Unfortunately, Mormons do.
RE: Followers of Christ are Christians.
Jesus Christ says otherwise.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).
Do you have the capability to discern the use of the phrase "Son of God" within the context of the period? (note capital S). Specifically, God the Son. The Gospel writers used it to declare His divinity.
So bigun - was Jesus a 'god' while on earth?
BTW - Joseph Smith said this about Christians " I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt"
Yet you profess Christians are not allowed to judge in return - how hypocritical.
I ABSOLUTELY agree!
By not rejecting all godlessness, but rather embracing it as all RC denominations have to some extent, is rather hypocritical. Would you agree?
John 8:7 When they kept questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “The one of you who is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
The key is understanding who Christ is. If one has a view of Christ that is contrary to what it taught in scripture than that “Christ” is false. Followers of a false “Christ” are therefore, false Christians.
I’m not re-defining the term Christian - I’m only revealing the fallacy that following any version of Christ makes one a true Christian.
I was commenting on the term “Christian”, which is found 3 times in the New Testament...I’m not sure what your point is....
Jesus also said, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
What is the will of the Father?
“For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life”
Jesus also said to beware of false prophets and false teachers who will deceive many. Rebuking false teachings seems to be in line with the will of God to me.
and I was asking you to cite those verses & please include the version of the NT you are citing from
This is NOT what the Bible reveals.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (John 1:1-4 -- the Word is God.)
Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior." (Isaiah 43:10b,11 -- not Gods, but one God and Savior)
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6 -- He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.)
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. For thus saith the LORD that created the heaven; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:17,18)
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:21,22)
"For unto a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)
This is just a small sample of verses clearly showing that Jesus Christ is God, the only God there is. Unless you believe that Jesus Christ is God, and the only God there is, you shall die in your sins (John 8:24). He died for all men, but his sacrificial death only profits those who believe.
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