Posted on 10/05/2011 8:26:50 AM PDT by Colofornian
I pose this, not as a trick question, but sincerely. To me, a non-Mormon, there are a couple of things that just don’t add up. The one is that Mormonism teaches that the Father and Son are separate Beings. It interprets their oneness that the Bible talks about as a unity of purpose or something similar, but never as a unity of being. But what trips me up is a LDS Scripture like D&C 20:19. “And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being that they should worship.”
The things that strikes me are the singulars (only God. . .only being). Who is the only being that this verse refers to? Who is the only being that should be worshipped? Does this refer to Heavenly Father or Jesus? It seems pretty clear to me that this scripture states that only one God is to be worshipped and, according to Mormonism, “one God” and “one being” can’t refer both to Heavenly Father and Jesus. Therefore my question: whom do Mormons worship?
Or more pointedly, would it be accurate to say that Mormonism does not teach worship of Jesus? The brief article on worship in the manual, True to the Faith, at the very least, causes one to ask that question. It quotes Moses 1:15: “Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.” In the next paragraph it specifically mentions that prayer is one way to worship the Father. A little bit later it says: “As you reverently partake of the sacrament and attend the temple, you remember and worship your Heavenly Father and express your gratitude for His Son, Jesus Christ.” Again, as a non-Mormon, I find that distinction between Heavenly Father and Jesus quite striking.
The bottom line is that D&C 20:19 states that only one being is to be worshipped. In light of that, I think it is only fair to ask, whom do Mormons worship?
Set within this statement
Jhn 1:1 KJV - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
We know that the Word is Jesus and we know that He was not only with God but was that very same God - Trinitarian construction - not polytheism 47.
Further - the context - Jesus - God in the flesh was praying as an example for his disciples at the time - that they might know the Trinitarian God.
4.. depends are you counting Adam as God as per b.young ?
4.. depends are you counting Adam as God as per b.young ?
We believe nearly everything you just posted.
Nonsense!
Christians believe that Jesus is The Creator - Mormons teach that Jesus was creatED. Something that is created can’t be the creator of ALL things.
Christians believe that Jesus is, was, and always will be the one and only God - Mormons teach that Jesus was created as a man, the literal physical offspring of a different diety, and earned his divinity as some point.
Very big differences...
You know, Joseph Smith copied many, many chapters from the prophet Isaiah into the Book of Mormon (italics and all...italic words were words the KJV translators added in the 17th century to words not in original Hebrew text). Because these were word for word, we get the picture that the so-called Mormon "prophets" of lore (and I emphasize Lore as in "myth") trusted the prophet Isaiah down to every word.
Were the God of the Bible "clearly polytheistic" then both those "prophets" of BoM lore -- as well as Smith in the JST -- should have re-edited the book of Isaiah to the following "specs" so that your polytheistic Gods could be superimposed upon Isaiah:
So, I've done you the "courtesy" to have your current or next "prophet" change these verses in the Bible (just like what Joseph Smith thought he had the authority to do) to read as follows:
* "I am the Lord, and there are others; apart from me there are multiples of gods." (A perversion of Is. 45:5)
* "I am the Lord, who has organized all things, who with a council of gods stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth with my fellow divine family members." (A twisting of Is. 44:24)
* "It is us who made the earth, and created mankind upon it. Our own hands stretched out the heavens; we marshaled their starry hosts." (A pretzel version of Is. 45:12)
* "I am the first, well almost, and I am certainly not the last; there are other gods all around me." (More twisting - this time of Is. 44:6)
*"Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are our witnesses. Are there gods beside me? Yes, I know plenty." (Utter perversion of Is. 44:8)
*"Before me generations of gods were formed, and so shall it be evermore happily ever after." (Ah, again, the Mormon "gospel" twisted version of Is. 43:10)
May I "sweetly" challenge Lds to go to the Bible they say they adhere to and meditate day and night upon Isaiah 43, Isaiah 44, and Isaiah 45? Isaiah reminds us, as if the above verses weren't enough, in 45:14: "'Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god.'"
"I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)“I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)
As a Christian Pastor, you know this is heretical teaching on par with the greatest heretics in Christian Church History! It is a gnarl of lies designed to support the Mormonism blasphemy that gods in a troika over earth are merely one of many gods:
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
For those only vaguely familiar with Christianity, and Judaism, all of the universe and all variations of THE universe came forth from The One God Who is greater than and exists independent of time and space. In the beginning means at, and through the CREATION. There was no 'before' preceding Creation because Time is also a created dimension, as is space a created dimension. Without time events do not occur, without space things do not exist. Even Angels exist in a spatio-temporal realm but we were not made in such a way as to be able to perceive this other spatio-temporal realm in our present state. At the very start of John's Gospel, we find:
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened. Young‘s Literal Transalation from the original Greek
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.KJV [THE WORD was God in the beginning, and the WORD was made flesh and dwelt among us. INSOFAR as the flesh can hold 'godness', Jesus, The Word through Whom and by Whom all things were created, was made flesh and dwelt among us! Jesus was and is God with us, the Hope of Glory.]
In the Hebrew scriptures (in The Torah) we read:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
And in the New Testament we read Jesus offering:
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And those who were trying to trip up Jesus fully understood this as they replied to Jesus regarding The One God Whose name is in Hebrew a plural form.
It is not surprising that people who believe such blasphemies as hallmark mormonism would not like to stand and debate the heresies at the heart of Joseph Smith, et al mormonism/LDS inc.
let me put it this way...PLEASE do NOT presume to tell me what I believe. 90% of the portrayals here of what the Saints believe is either an outright falsehood or a deliberate distortion.
Do you disagree with what your peepstone sexual predator of married women prophet stated, as recorded in the Journal of Discourses?
Well, let's review Fishtank's list, shall we?
The true Jesus is the CREATOR of the whole universe...Everything was CREATED BY HIM.
Yes, Mormons believe that Jesus and the Father are co-creators. The problem comes with how Mormons define the word "create." When Mormons use the word "create" -- they really mean "organize." They don't believe their gods had the power to "create" out of nothing ("ex-nihilo") -- and so they defy the writer of Hebrews, who wrote: "3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." (Heb. 11:3)
So, when Fishtank says, "Everything was created by him" -- that goes thru the Mormon word reorganizer machine and comes out in a Mormon's mind, "Everything was organized by him." Well, of course, Jesus is an organizer. But He's also the CREATOR (from nothing)!
And to that, well, that's not Mormon doctrine. Because Mormon doctrine states that all things are eternal. D&C 93:29,33 shows that not even mankind was in a sense "created" by God or Jesus: "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be...For man is spirit. The elements are eternal and spirit..."
Hence, the Mormon gods are not the true ex-nihilo creators of intelligence. They merely contributed celestial sex so that these intelligences could be translated into spirit kids, and then they sent them to earth to get their bodies.
Fishtank also cited Col. 1:15 -- "all things were created by him, and for him"
But whereas Christians believe Jesus created angels, including Lucifer. Mormons don't. Mormons reduce Jesus to being the elder spirit-bro of Lucifer. As a spirit-bro, he could hardly have created Lucifer. So Mormons make exceptions to Col. 1:15 about who Jesus created.
“Translation: “I can’t Biblically support what I’ve tried to ignorantly export.” “
No. The correct translation is: “What’s the point?” You aren’t going to sway from your position, no matter what I say or what Biblical support I offer. So, again, What’s the point?
Finally I have asked several and gotten mixed answers.
Indeed, show us in the bible that there are other true 'gods' besides God, mormons.
The point? You could say something to the effect of, "Thanks for the reminder. Yes, I was wrong when I said in post #7 that 'FWIW, worshipping Jesus is never specifically commanded in the Bible (though there are instances of people doing so). You will not find a verse that says to worship Jesus (follow, obey, etc., sure, but not worship).' I failed to include Hebrews 1:6 in that statement. I humbly apologize for stating an absolute that isn't."
(But hey, who am I to put words in your mouth?)
And the issue here isn't so much, "I'm right; you're wrong." The issue is the Bible does command beings to worship Jesus (Heb. 1:6). Let's let the Bible speak for itself without censoring, deleting or ignoring some of its content. (That's the key point!)
“90% of the portrayals here of what the Saints believe is either an outright falsehood or a deliberate distortion.”
The only outright falsehood or deliberate distortion appears to be your statement...
MANY of the posters here WERE in the mormon cult and escaped. MANY have family members they love who are still in the mormon cult.
MANY held leadership positions in the mormon cult. Some went to your cultic university.
They not only know the score, they now know the truth.
We are always open for honest clarification 47. MHG's citations are from an authortative source - the prophet smith himself, and can be further backed up in the teachings of your other prophets throughout the history of mormonism as well as in your other scriptures.
So, please feel free to break open your quad and your JoD and other reference materials as such and show where the outright falsehoods are.
As far as the Trinity being a “Modern” Christian belief, what is your definition of “modern”. The idea of the Trinity has been with us from the start since it is rather a logical extension of what is said in the Bible more than a few times. Church leaders did not just wake up on 325 AD and say “hey, look what I just made up...”
Joseph Smith said: Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)
Lds “apostle” Bruce McConkie, in his book, The Promised Messiah, showed 20th century Mormons still believed this when he wrote:
That there never was a son without a father, nor a father without a son, is self-evident and in the very nature of things both sire and son partake of the same nature and are members of the same house and lineage (p. 9).
The problem, of course, isn't that the Father and Son have eternally co-existed. The problem is that Mormons inject "chronological time" into this...and thereby have infinite regression that God the Father was a son to another father, who was son to another father, ad infinitum.
Per the Encyclopedia of Mormonism put together by Mormon leaders, "Jesus was in time before he entered mortality, is in time now, and will be forever...time is a segment of eternity." (Jesus Christ and His Gospel, p. 459)
No you don’t. Jesus is a created being in LDS theology, not God Eternal.
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