Posted on 09/30/2011 11:12:07 AM PDT by Colofornian
If this truly isn't what Mormons believe, even if it was 29 years ago, BYU should be taken to task and watched like a hawk to make sure they don't publish such nonsense again.
Are you secure in knowing that through Jesus Christ's atonement you will receive all, and the very best of His Celestial Kingdom? Or do you worry that you have not achieved enough to reach celestial glory, and will only go to the terrestrial or telestial glory?
My mother researched Mormonism, along with several other religions/cults, and documented her findings, so I’m not basing my comment upon one FR post but upon what she found and what I have read myself. If Mr. McConkie believes that Jesus had to save Himself, he simply doesn’t understand Who Jesus is. What Jesus’ relationship with him is, I cannot judge.
You can use all the Christian terminology you want, but the fact remains that Mormonism teaches things about Jesus that are contrary to how Jesus is depicted in the Bible. If any person accepts all the Mormon teachings about Jesus then they have not accepted the Biblical Jesus.
No, they do not, even according to the words of lds leaders.
LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie taught: virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ… (Mormon Doctrine, “False Christs,” page 269)
It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Seventy Bernard P. Brockbank,Ensign, May 1977, page 26)
[There are those outside the LDS Church who say Latter-day Saints] do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, Church News, 20 June 1998, page 7)
As a Church, we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, May 2002, page 90)
In addition:
lds jesus - created
Biblical Jesus - eternal
lds jesus - not sufficient for salvation IE after all we can do
Biblical Jesus - sufficient
lds jesus - brother of satan
Biblical Jesus - not the brother of satan
lds jesus - married
Biblical Jesus - not married
lds does not teach the Biblical Jesus.
Heck, we Catholics have to justify stuff that was said 1,600 years ago. 29 years ain't nuthin'!
What do YOU think the quoted writer meant? How much weight should be given the quoted statements in your view?
And in a larger realm, would you describe LDS theology of the Trinity and of the Person of Christ as compatible with the dogmata of Nicea, Ephesus, and Chalcedon?
As I hope is clear, my thinking is that if we HAVE to start calling one another names and condescending and being sorry for one another and the rest, I'd like to get our disagreements clear first. I mean, I GUESS I'm okay with burning you at the stake but I'd like to be clear about WHY before I buy the weenies and marshmallows
And of course Mary was born without sin and is co-redeemer with Christ.
What does that have to do with the price of eggs?
I guess im saying,that alot of things catholics say is just as unbiblical as what mormons say.Kettle calling the pot black sort of thing,,,
How about you start another thread about your concerns with Catholicism, so this thread can focus on the heretical teachings of Mormonism.
ALL (especially including Oremites): Besides my first post, where I lay a key distinction between the Mormon Jesus and the Jesus of the Bible, here are 14 additional questions which shows you how Mormonism has embraced a counter-historical Jesus.
(If you think you know somebody online -- but is misrepresenting themselves -- do you really know that person? The same sense of "identity theft" applies to the Mormon Jesus...Please compare, pray, study, pray...)
Q1 Isn't the first distinct focus on the Mormon "Jesus" was that he was some unembodied vague "intelligence" even before the Mormon claim that Jesus, like Superman, had parents from another planet?
A Yes. Lds "scriptures" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33 assign ALL of us eternal status as past-tense intelligences. (So we're ALL supposedly as "eternal" as Jesus is)
Q2 Well about what about once the Mormon "Jesus" got to the spirit baby stage? Comparing so-called "spirit babies" born to a mom goddess in heaven, what difference was there between the "Jesus spirit baby" and the supposed rest of us "spirit babies" born to such a mom goddess?
A Mere spiritual birth order--The Mormon Jesus supposedly having been birth first in some "pre-existent world"
Q3 What about the Earthly Origins of the Mormon Christ?
A * Place of birth: Jerusalem (vs. Bible pinpointing it as Bethlehem).
* The Mormon Jesus was twice made a son of God via Mary 'cause Lds say Heavenly Father was the literal paternal father of the conceived Jesus;
* The Mormon Jesus only became God's "only begotten Son" upon conception within Mary. Not so: Jesus, as the Son of God from eternity (John 17:5) -- having shared God's glory before the world was -- is God's one and only Son (John 3:18)...the rest of us are mere "adopted" sons -- if we are indeed His.
Q4 Is the Mormon "Jesus" an exalted spirit baby-become-god?
A As noted above, the lds jesus is not the Son of God from eternity past. That "jesus" worked his way up to godhood status. He's not an exalted God-become-man, but an exalted man-become-God. He was an elder spirit bro of Lucifer. Had you or your brother been "first" in that pre-existent spirit world birth order, he could have been Christ!!!
This "jesus" is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17:5). This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see Philippians 2). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.
Q5 Is the Mormon christ just one savior among many?
Yes. Admittedly this is currently publicly downplayed -- but to Lds directly -- baptism of/for the dead has been played up by Lds "prophets" from Joseph Smith to Joseph Fielding Smith to others as THE most important individual responsibility there is -- wrapping that responsibility up in their own works-driven salvation:
Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith: “But greater than all this, so far as our individual responsibilities are concerned, the greatest is to become SAVIORS, in our lesser degree which is assigned us, for the dead who have died without a knowledge of the Gospel. Joseph Smith said, ‘The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us, is to seek after our dead’…It will suffice here to say that the Lord has placed upon us this responsibility of seeing that our dead receive the blessings of the Gospel. Said Joseph Smith: ‘Those saints who neglect it, in behalf of their deceased relatives, do it at the peril of their own salvation.’” (The Way to Perfection, pp. 153-154)
Lds "prophet" John Taylor: ...we are the only people that know how to SAVE our progenitors, how to SAVE OURSELVES, and how to SAVE our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).
Joseph Fielding Smith again: "... mortals have to BE SAVIORS on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (The Way to Perfection, p. 325)
Taylor again: "We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to BE SAVIORS FOR THEM by being baptized for them in the flesh,, that they may live according to God in the Spirit." (March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)
No, "saviors of the world" are NOT plentiful per the Bible (see 1 John 4:14; John 4:42).
Q6 How were our sins atoned for? By sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane?
A Lds leaders have constantly de-emphasized the cross of Christ by pointing to the garden, where Jesus sweat blood, as the place of atonement.
Q7 Did the Mormon "jesus" really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature?
A No, if you take merely the Mormon Articles of Faith -- Article #2.
Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church:
From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church...
Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN)
The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."]
The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."
Also, the Mormon leaders accuse Jesus of having rather anemic blood:
"Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135)
"Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93).
So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism.
Q8 Was the Mormon Jesus a creature before He was a 'Creator'?
A Yes. The Bible assigns Jesus as being the Creator of All Things & All Beings -- whereas the Mormon "Jesus" is Simply a spirit Creature offspring of Kolobian parents.
Compare that to the Jesus of the Bible Who created ALL things--including all angels...including even Lucifer (see Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16; see even D&C 93:9-10).
Q9 Why do Mormons downplay the uniqueness of Jesus?
A Because of their unique doctrine that
(a) we were all eternal;
(b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus;
(c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation";
(d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people;
(e) all temple Mormons become gods.
(f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship.
The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!)
Q10 Do Mormons worship Jesus?
A It depends upon which Mormon and which Mormon leaders you talk to. Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie advised Lds STRONGLY in 1982 to not worship Jesus.
McConkie must have seized upon the Mormon "scripture" of D&C 20:17-19 as the key verse that would “guide” his pattern of worship once & for all: and that he should be the ONLY BEING whom they should worship ... as he quoted it to BYU students. (See Our relationship with the Lord)
Christians worship this Messiah, just like God told the angels to do in Hebrews 1:6. And I challenge grassroots Mormons to defy their leaders -- like Lds "apostle" McConkie when they tell them NOT to directly worship Jesus (see Mormon 7:7; 2 Nephi 25:29; 4 Nephi 4:37; 3 Nephi 11:17; 3 Nephi 17:10).
I DIRECTLY pray to this Jesus as Stephen did in Acts (7:59) -- and even as the supposed Book of Mormon disciple characters DIRECTLY and repeatedly did to Jesus in 3 Nephi 19: 6-26...again -- a Mormon "scripture" de-emphasized & ignored by Mormon leaders).
Q11 If Mormons do worship Jesus -- and if they deem Jesus a "separate" god than Heavenly Father, doesn't that mean they worship more than one god?
A Yes.
To show you the extent of confusion this has caused even among Mormon leaders, look at "apostle" McConkie's book, Mormon Doctrine:
"Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)
Q12 Wait a minute. Didn't you just get done telling us that McConkie advised BYU students NOT to worship Jesus in 1982?
A Indeed, he did, after saying the above in 1966! But McConkie was so confused, he would say "3" then "2" in the same book...and then eventually settled on "1" by 1982!
McConkie, on p. 848 of Mormon Doctrine, emphasized worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).
Q13 Doesn't the Book of Mormon contradict even the two-god worship theory of McConkie's?
A Yes. Mormon 7:7 reads: 7And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the bworld, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to ddwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
So you can see how confusing this gets...trinitarian theology is found frequently in the Book of Mormon...including worshiping the Holy Spirit!
Q14 Doesn't it all boil down to how many gods you worship?
A Yes.
Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Joseph Smith's concocted "Nephite disciples" called Jesus “their Lord and God” (3 Nephi 19:18).
And look @ what other Mormon "scriptures" say:
* The D&C says Jesus is God (19:4; 62:1; etc.) Since there’s only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures [for example, the Mormon "scripture" from the Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6)]
* All this means is that either Jesus is a false god or is the one true God. As Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28) -- so Thomas has two gods?
I testify Jesus Christ is my only Lord, my Savior, my God! He is the Only Lord, the Only Savior, the Only True God!
If you read what I wrote, you may find that I wasn't calling anybody anything. I was going for clarification.
My goal of clarification will not be served if, before one issue is barely entered upon, another is introduced. So please excuse me from responding to your comment further than to say that it seems scarcely relevant.
If you want to discuss Catholicism, start a thread about Catholicism. This thread is about mormonISM.
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I am not the best person to argue Mormon Theology, but, I have examined some of it and I think the Mormons are mostly misunderstood. I am not trying to offend any Mormons in my comments and any mistakes I make I apologize in advance for my misunderstandings, but this is from my own personal observations.
They believe that not only is Jesus eternal, that we are all eternal.
Mormons believe that The Son of God was and is just that, The Son of God. That means He was created by God. Surely then Lucifer was also created by God. If these things are even remotely true I don't have a problem with the Lucifer Christ brother accusation.
Mormons don't believe in the Nicean Creed the way that traditional Christians do and they don't claim to as far as I know. They believe that there is God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Three entities that make up a “God head” as they call it. While they have this Godhead they believe there is only one supreme being, God The Father. They believe that God The Father has given all He has to His Son Jesus Christ so that Christ too is God but God The Father is still at the top. Mormons believe that the belief in the Trinity as we have it in the Nicean Creed was not codified until that creed was written. Not all believed it when it was written and some left the Church over it, some eventually came back but some were excommunicated for not accepting it. So Mormons believe what some of the early Christians believed.
Mormon theology does not teach that Christ has ever been married. There are Mormon scholars that speculate that this is so. Personally I don't know what difference it makes.
The Mormon Jesus is certainly worshiped. He is not prayed to, only His Father is prayed to but every prayer is said in the name of Jesus Christ. I think they Love the Lord Jesus Christ as much as anyone one this earth could possibly love Him. They believe that to love Him is to serve Him. They believe like James that if you don't have works then you don't really love Him. They don't teach that works save anyone only that works show your love.
Jesus of the Mormons offers salvation to all by virtue of His grace to all who seek it. Mormons believe that being saved is the same as traditional Christians believe being saved is. Where Mormons believe differently is in the degrees of Heaven, they don't think that all will receive the same glory in heaven. They believe that Christ taught that the Apostles will be judges in heaven. Even Paul taught that he was “caught up into the 3rd heaven”. They teach that if you do more than simply acknowledge the name of Christ by following Him and obeying His commandments that you will be rewarded more than people who don't even try.
They have temples. They do not believe that the temple conveys any rights to you in and of itself only that if you are worthy to receive the promised blessings that you must go through the temple first.
One of the things I like most about the Mormons is their idea of temples. Even though they may not believe that I qualify for the higher blessings they (after I die) will have someone go through their temple for me so that I can qualify. As far as I can see it is a totally unselfish work.
I will not say that Mormons and Traditional Christianity are the same, hardly. What I do question is, what difference do their different beliefs make as long as they worship Christ? Does it make a difference that they think of the construction of the Trinity differently from me? Does it make any difference that they may see a white Jesus and that Indians may see an Indian Christ and Orientals see an Oriental Christ etc.? Mormons are different, for sure but I think they still worship Christ.
Now when all you Mormons and Mormon haters start throwing rocks at me please keep them small.
Stopped reading after your statement: am not the best person to argue Mormon Theology as that states it all.
Until you actually understand mormonISM, ping me, then we can discuss it.
I was taught this as well when I was LDS. Our ‘elder brother’ Jesus was our example on how to earn salvation and godhood. He was just better at it (no sin) so he got to be “Savior” and earned his godhood immediately.
The Mormon Jesus was married (so was God) and probably a polygamist. They don’t have any issue with Jesus having sex and children.
It is a good thing that people are willing to listen to others outside of Mormonism, since the LDS are notorious for lying (or omitting) about their beliefs.
I was taught this doctrine and it didn’t just come from McConkie.
Not paying attention in church, are you?
Turtle isn’t going to buy that, and neither do I. IIRC he is, like me, a former Mormon, one who sat through Sacrament, SS, and Priesthood/RF for years.
The Mormon Jesus is NOTHING like the the Jesus of the Bible.
BTW, what did your Jesus ‘save’ you from? Physical death only? Do you have to ‘do your part’ in your salvation? Are there sins that Jesus’ blood doesn’t cover? Is Jesus REALLY a Savior of sins or just a ‘loan shark’ that has to be paid back? Did Jesus pay for sins in the Garden or on the Cross (it cannot be both)?
I can source all of these so answer carefully.
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