Posted on 09/10/2011 2:27:32 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
I have actually been reading about many Muslims coming to faith in Jesus Christ. It's not widely reported, of course, but it is happening.
Because Jesus approaches each of us in exactly the way we need in order to respond to Him, He is coming to many Muslims in dreams and visions and they are accepting Him as Savior.
Jesus Christ is reaping a huge harvest from among those who are enslaved to Islam.
God loves the descendents of Ishmael as much as He loves us, and salvation is available to them as well as anyone else, but they are uniquely enslaved to Satan in a way that others aren't and it is extremely hard for them to be rescued from that oppression.
However, the fact remains that the promises God made to Abraham were to be fulfilled through Isaac, not Ishmael. And if Abraham and Sarah had simply trusted God and not disobeyed Him, so much anguish and needless death through the last four thousand years could have been avoided.
If you have something to say, why don’t you just come out with it?
Amen, and THANK-YOU for your posting.
What Abraham did, by fathering Ishmael, is an important lesson in TRUSTING God and HIS PROMISES and NOT depending your own strength.
That is why we HAVE TO pray for their conversion to Jesus Christ.
read
But did Abraham not sin by fathering Ishmael and not “trusting” in God’s promise both him and Sarah? It is the lesson of “waiting” on the Lord.
Please read post number 17, the poster is correct about Ishmael.
Yes, he comes from syria and he is spotted like a Cheetah
I bet Satan has planted a few suprises and they will soon be find. They will be used to discredit the Bible.
It does not impune Abraham’s charactor, because in time Ishmael became a “wild man” as the scripture has said. Thse are facts, it is a confirmation about the nature of his birth.
Well, I completely disagree. Gen 16:1-3, 1 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.” Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. (NIV)
God would not have made the covenant he did with Abraham were he guilty of so great a transgression as illcit “sex”. Ishmael’s birth was not illegitimate, Hagaar was his wife. It was, at the that time, an acceptable custom for Sarah to offer her maid, in her stead, to allow Abraham to produce an heir. The son from such an arrangement would be treated as though he had been born to Sarah herself, becoming an heir to Abraham’s birthright. Sarah offering her maid in her stead was an act of love and a recognition of the importance of a birthright heir.
It wasn’t until later that God revealed to Abraham that he would still have an heir through Sarah. As I read the scriputres I find no condemnation from God to Abraham for the birth of Ishmael. The birth of Ishmael was a necessary event, for whatever reason God intended.
Yes it is: Rev. 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
I'm going to need the Scripture where God tells Abraham to make a baby with Hagar. Keep in mind that Sarah's opinions about what should be done do not matter. I need to see where God specifically told Abraham to make a baby with Hagar. If God told Abraham that he and his wife Sarah would have a child through whom the promises would be fulfilled, then that is what I'm going to believe. Give me the Scriptures where God told Abraham that the child of promise would come through an illegitimate liaison with Hagar.
God would not have made the covenant he did with Abraham were he guilty of so great a transgression as illcit “sex”.
All humans have sinned. Abraham was human. Abraham lied when he twice claimed Sarah was his sister, fearing for his own life. But we know that God did make the covenant with Abraham in spite of his disobedience because the plan of God was going to be carried out and completed regardless of the transgressions of a human being. We all must REAP what we sow -- even though God forgives our sins upon repentance. God refused to approve this adulterous act of Abraham. He rejected the illegitimate son, Ishmael, from the birthright. Abraham and Sarah's disobedience has brought untold misery and anguish and trouble to the world, but, as God says, ... the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29) God made promises to Abraham, and God keeps His promises.
In Genesis 21:8-21 is the record of Hagar's departure from Sarah and Abraham. God ordered Abraham to send away the concubine Hagar and her son, and Abraham obeyed. This was at the time Isaac was weaned. Abraham had, after this, no more relations with Hagar. This entire episode was an act of direct, willful disobedience to God and, as we see from Scripture, God did not recognize Ishamael as legitimate.
Ishmael’s birth was not illegitimate, Hagaar was his wife.
You'll need to produce the Scripture to support that assertion and Scripture which contradicts the Genesis account where God ordered Abraham to send Hagar and her son away and Abraham obeyed God. Abraham was not a polygamist. While Sarah, his wife, lived, he never married any other woman. Abraham had an illegitimate son by Hagar. But that was an adulterous sin. Sarah was barren. For a wife in ancient times to go childless was felt to be a disgrace. It was Sarah, Abraham's own wife, who brought to Abraham her servant handmaid, asking him to produce a child for Sarah by this servant woman. This union happened as a result of the decisions made by fallen human beings - this union was never commanded to happen by God and never sanctioned by God.
It was, at the that time, an acceptable custom for Sarah to offer her maid, in her stead, to allow Abraham to produce an heir. The son from such an arrangement would be treated as though he had been born to Sarah herself, becoming an heir to Abraham’s birthright. Sarah offering her maid in her stead was an act of love and a recognition of the importance of a birthright heir.
Abraham was not a polygamist -- David completely repented of his own polygamy and God's legal statutes made polygamy illegal in ancient Israel.
God did not sanction polygamy in Old Testament times. Contrary to the suppositions many have accepted, God forbade it -- and punished for it. Even though there are a few recorded Old Testament instances of plural wives, God never approved, nor made lawful, more than one living wife for any man. Quite the contrary, He forbade it, even to the kings of Israel, and that by written statute.
Abraham was not a polygamist. While Sarah, his wife, lived, he never married any other woman. Sarah's death is recorded in Genesis 23:1-2. It was after that (Gen. 25), that Abraham married Keturah. This, of course, was a perfectly legal marriage. There was no polygamy -- no divorce.
To claim that the adulterous sexual act between Abraham and a woman who was not his wife was somehow blessed by God can find no support in Scripture whatsoever and is nothing more than the longings of people who, for whatever reason, want to make the illegitimate Ishmael something acceptable to God.
It wasn’t until later that God revealed to Abraham that he would still have an heir through Sarah. As I read the scriputres I find no condemnation from God to Abraham for the birth of Ishmael. The birth of Ishmael was a necessary event, for whatever reason God intended.
You'll need to provide the Scriptures that support that claim. The fact that God tells us that "... God said, Nay, but Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him." (Genesis 17:19), and the fact that Paul said, "the son by the freewoman is born through promise." (Galatians 4:23); the fact that God said of Ishmael, ""And he shall be as a wild ass among men; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his brethren." (Genesis 16:12); the fact that God ordered Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away from him, the fact that God bestowed none of the covenant promises on Ishmael - there is nothing in Scripture that even hints that it was God's will for Abraham to commit adultery with Hagar and produce this child, Ishmael.
he is spotted like a Cheetah Make fun of God's word at your own risk!
I gave you the scripture its Gen 16:3, it says clearly she was given to be his wife. You don’t call your adulturous lover a ‘wife’. You’re going to have to give me the scripture where God condems Abraham for adultery as he did for example with David - he doesn’t, because he didn’t commit it. Your condemnation of Abraham for adultery is without support in the scriptures. You don’t know that he wasn’t married to Hagaar, and in fact the only scripture we have on the matter Gen 16:3 says she was his wife. Yes Abraham did send Hagaar and Ishmael away, but only after they threatened Isaac and he was forced to. Tell me was Jacob guilty of adultery in marrying both Leah and Rachel? I don’t think so and you’re in denial if you don’t think God on occasion sanctioned polygamy in OT times. I never said that the child of promise would come through Hagaar. Yes we all sin and fall short, but not all sin is equal in gravity either. I find it incomprehensible the God would choose to bless Abraham in the way that he did were he the type of person to commit so grevious a sin as adultery, and had he done so that blessing would have been given to another more worthy. In every other case where so signifcant a figure commits so serious a sin the scriptures clearly record the condemnation of God for the sin. You’ll need to show me where God condemned Abraham for marrying Hagaar. I don’t have any longing to legitimize Ishmael. While there may be as you say no hint that God told Abraham to produce a child with Hagaar, neither do I find condemnation of it. The promise in Gen 17 that Sarah would bear him a son was given after Ishmael was born. The fact that God told Abraham after Ishmael’s birth that he would still have a son through Sarah and that through him the promised blessing would come indicates to me that God did not consider him guilty of so grevious a sin as adultery. Sexual sin is among the most grevious in the eyes of God and I find it inconsistent that God would continue to work through someone guilty of so great a sin.
Friend, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.
That Bible commentary is the best I have read in a long time from you.
The whole thing comes down to both waiting and in trusting in the Lord God.
It says Sarah "gave" Hagar to "be his wife". Sarah sinned. The Scripture never says one word that this was what God wanted.
You’re going to have to give me the scripture where God condems Abraham for adultery as he did for example with David - he doesn’t, because he didn’t commit it.
Abraham didn't commit adultery? Which woman did God command Abraham to send away along with her child? Sarah or Hagar? Which woman was the legal, legitimate wife and which was the adultery partner?
Your condemnation of Abraham for adultery is without support in the scriptures. You don’t know that he wasn’t married to Hagaar, and in fact the only scripture we have on the matter Gen 16:3 says she was his wife.
What would your word for God commanding Abraham to force Hagar to take her child and leave and the fact that God curses Ishmael with the prophecy that Ishmael and his descendents would constantly be at conflict with each other and the rest of the world be? Blessing?
The Scripture you refer to only tells us that Sarah, not God, refers to Hagar as Abraham's "wife". Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the adulterous union between Abraham and Hagar was legal or sanctioned by God. Sarah calling Hagar Abraham's "wife" is meaningless. God never says that Hagar was Abraham's "wife". Just because the Bible records something does not mean that God agrees with it. The Bible also records the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah were cities where homosexuality was practiced by almost everyone there. God also condemns homosexuality. So which is it? Does the fact that God records that homosexuality was happening means that He agrees with it? God commands man not to commit adultery. So does that then mean that because God records the fact that Sarah took it upon herself to call Hagar Abraham's "wife" so that it would look better when they committed adultery, He agrees with the adultery?
Yes Abraham did send Hagaar and Ishmael away, but only after they threatened Isaac and he was forced to.
That's odd. God told Abraham:
But God said to Abraham, “Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her... (Genesis 21:12)
Why would God tell Abraham to send his legitimate "wife" away? Why didn't God force Sarah to go away? Who was the "wife" whom God ordered to leave? If Hagar and her son were legitimate, why did God order them to leave?
Tell me was Jacob guilty of adultery in marrying both Leah and Rachel?
Aside from the fact that Jacob was deceived into marrying Leah, I would have to say, based on the word of God that yes, he committed adultery by having two wives:
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. (Genesis 2:24) This passage speaks of “a man” and “his wife” not “men” or “his wives.”
I don’t think so and you’re in denial if you don’t think God on occasion sanctioned polygamy in OT times. I never said that the child of promise would come through Hagaar. Yes we all sin and fall short, but not all sin is equal in gravity either. I find it incomprehensible the God would choose to bless Abraham in the way that he did were he the type of person to commit so grevious a sin as adultery, and had he done so that blessing would have been given to another more worthy.
Again, I'll need Scripture to validate your assertions. And I'll especially need the Scripture which explicitly states that God did not carry out the Abrahamic covenant, and if you can find that you can include the Scripture which says that the Abrahamic covenant was not completed due to Abraham's sin with Hagar. So far, you have failed to produce any Scripture which substantiates any of what you have claimed.
In every other case where so signifcant a figure commits so serious a sin the scriptures clearly record the condemnation of God for the sin. You’ll need to show me where God condemned Abraham for marrying Hagaar. I don’t have any longing to legitimize Ishmael. While there may be as you say no hint that God told Abraham to produce a child with Hagaar, neither do I find condemnation of it. The promise in Gen 17 that Sarah would bear him a son was given after Ishmael was born. The fact that God told Abraham after Ishmael’s birth that he would still have a son through Sarah and that through him the promised blessing would come indicates to me that God did not consider him guilty of so grevious a sin as adultery. Sexual sin is among the most grevious in the eyes of God and I find it inconsistent that God would continue to work through someone guilty of so great a sin. Friend, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.
The fact that God ordered Abraham to listen to his wife Sarah and send Hagar away was the condemnation of Abraham's adultery with Hagar.
As for the rest of your post, you have provided not one verse of Scripture to back up what you have claimed.
The fact remains that Ishmael was illegitimate, and has no claim to anything that God promised to the Jews or gave to the Jews.
You have provided no Scriptural proof to the contrary.
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