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To: metmom
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Um, because we are never commanded to be accountable to a group of self-appointed, good old boys club men.?
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The problem with confusing polemic with advocacy is that it ends up wasting time.

I agree that we are never commanded to obey such a group. Yet somehow I suspect this will not resolve our differences.

When Jesus says to those few with him at the last supper that the Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth He does not say how. He therefore cannot be assumed to have meant that that guiding would be without human mediation for all His followers, the many not in the upper room then and the very many all over the world now.

While there is no positive statement that the Spirit will guide all Christians into all the Truth without human mediation, Paul, speaks about the gifts of the Spirit, asks (expecting the answer ‘no’) “Are all teachers?” Yet earlier he says that some are.

If some, but not all, are teachers, then some are pupils. We are talking about the Gospel, the Faith, and the manner of living I, I presume.

What pupils have in common is that they are to learn. Evidently Paul says some are to teach them.

Therefore the Spirit guides some, even many, into at least some aspects of the truth through the ministry of teachers, and not by direct, unmediated inspiration.

There were, so to speak, “levels” among our Lord's followers. The Seventy and the Twelve are the clearest example. After the Resurrection Paul says there are still levels. It seems apparent that among the many problems at Corinth was something like status envy. Paul is arguing that the differentiation of functions and ministries is not a difference in the degree of participation or inspiration. After all, no one can say “Jesus is Lord,” (and mean it) without inspiration, and the Church is the family of those who make that confession.

But we have to distinguish between degree and kind. Paul clearly does so in Ephesians and Corinthians.

It follows from all this that for some the Spirit used human mediation to guide into the truth, and Paul implies that pupils are no less inspired than, but are inspired differently from teachers.

If God has not set me in the Church as teacher, then I had better resolve to learn from those who teach.

3,615 posted on 09/16/2011 3:37:31 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)
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To: Mad Dawg
The problem is that false teachers arise, and without discernment and wisdom, people will be sucked in. So human mediation is of limited value. The individual believe is still then, required to make the determination whether this group of men is who they claim to be and has indeed been established by God, and they saying so doesn't cut it with me. Lots of people claim lots of things that aren't necessarily so.

And there are plenty of examples of that if you're coming up short ......

The Holy Spirit can guide us into truth most easily through Scripture, the written word of God. There is plenty of material there to give us God's thoughts and design for our lives and guide us in making decisions about what He would have us do and what constitutes sin. There's more than enough there to deal with who God is and what His plan of redemption is for mankind.

Simply starting with the Ten Commandments and then the two greatest commandments, will pretty much ensure a life that pleases Him.

Yes, there are differences of opinion on many theological issues but a great deal of them are sometimes no more than preferences or matters of opinion. What kind of worship music one likes, how often a church body takes communion, whether women should wear dresses and long hair or not, as long as someone does not make salvation conditional on it, it's irrelevant.

Theoretically, if everyone were to be completely receptive to the leading of the Holy Spirit, everyone's theology would line up perfectly with everyone else's. Theoretically.

But we are fallible humans but so long as we trust in Christ alone for salvation, I believe that God allows for wide leeway in non-essential matters.

Besides, rigid adherence to a specific doctrinal position does not indicate spirituality or spiritual maturity. Some people just thrive on living a *everything is black and white* kind of mentality. Some people use it as a means to control others. Some people will be deceived into thinking that if they just do the do's and don't do the don't's, they'll be OK, without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

On the contrary, Paul addresses that towards the end of Romans when he talks about eating meat sacrificed to idols and considering one day better than others or all days the same. There are believers with weaker consciences who we should not trip up.

God called David a man after His own heart, and yet David engaged in abominable sin. Lot was called *righteous Lot* in 2 Peter, hardly a man most people would even consider a believer based on his lifestyle, and yet God called him *righteous*.

And neither of them had any kind of board of authority to answer to.

God knows our frame and remembers that we are dust (one of the most reassuring verses in the whole Bible, IMO) and meets us where we are.

I for one do not believe that with all God did to reach me in the first place while I was still a sinner who didn't give a rip about Him, He's going to abandon me or let me so easily go now, not that I am His child.

He can guide me through His word and through prayer and through the advice and encouragement of other brothers and sisters in Christ. I do not think that any group of human men that demands that I be accountable to them is necessary. When you have the Spirit abiding in you, you learn to hear and recognize His voice. There's where discernment comes in. The average lay person is not nearly that helpless spiritually.

Hebrews 5:11-14 11About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

I believe we are more capable of getting it right without human guidance, but rather relying on the leading of the Spirit, that those who would like to guide us, lead us to believe.

3,629 posted on 09/16/2011 7:14:54 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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