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To: smvoice
Unless you believe that Dr. Frankenstein ("That's FRANKENSTEEN") could regenerate people from death to life.

I have GOT to see that movie!

Please note my question about cooking with heat or with a stove. In our thought (such as it is) those who 'do' the (what you call) "ritual"

(I THINK 'ceremony' is more precise. It's vexed but when I was in seminary they said 'ritual' is what you say and 'ceremony' is what you do -- but they almost always go together)
do not understand their action to exclude the Spirit, anymore than somebody who uses a stove means to exclude heat from the cooking process.

When I did a baptism, I didn't think I was causing anything in any fundamental way. The 'rite' was like communion in that the first part (after scripture and sermon and miscellaneous stuff) was prayer of petition. I was asking God the Holy Spirit to do that thing He does.

Then, confident not in myself but in God's promise and Love, more as a witness than a doer, then I did the washing and the "pronouncing".

We can have the infant baptism argument

Q.: Do you believe in infant Baptism?
A.: Believe in it? Heck, I've SEEN it!
or the bigger ex opere operato argument, and they are good arguments to have, God knows!

But any priest or minister (anybody can baptize, but "reularly" it is done by an ordained indiwiddle) who thinks HE's God (or SHE's got) the mojo is a dope. The water doesn't do it. The "minister" (lay or ordained) doesn't do it. In our thought it is always God who does it. We just hold his coat or something.

It's like a miracle worker thinks or ought to think. Dominic didn't raise the boy from the dead. GOD raised the boy from the dead. Dominic was, like, the telephone or something.

3,284 posted on 09/14/2011 12:38:42 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Hi, MD. I just wanted to touch base with you. I read your post and because a thoughtful post deserves a thoughtful response, I need to put the "this world" stuff aside first, so I can concentrate! Sorry, but I'll get back to ASAP. BTW that is one of the funniest movies EVER! Next to Raising Arizona, it's a toss-up for my favorite.

"SEDAGIVE? SE-DA-GIVE????"

3,301 posted on 09/14/2011 2:41:05 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: Mad Dawg
This is my understanding of water baptism in the RCC. The priest invokes God to empower the water, saying "By the power of the Holy Spirit give tothe water of this font the grace of your Son" [catechism 1217-1218,1238]/ The Rites of the Catholic Church (New York: Pueblo Publishing Co., 1990), vol.1, p. 400. First problem from a Scriptural viewpoint: there is no biblical precedent for such a prayer.

I have no doubt as to the sincere motives of Catholic parents in having their newborn infants baptized. Nevertheless, we arrive at problem two from a Scriptural viewpoint: the practice is unbiblical. Parents cannot decide for their child that he/she will receive God's gift of salvation and be born again. The Bible teaches that each person must make his/her own choice:

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12,13.

Infant baptism misleads Catholics as to their true spiritual condition and need by producing a false hope. Catholic children are taught early on that baptism has removed their original sin and infused them with sanctifying grace. Their proof of this? a baptismal certificate issued by the Church showing that the sacrament has been properly executed. Problem three: no biblical Scripture supporting this.

Now to the questions I have for you: If Justification is by water Baptism...

1. Why didn't Jesus baptize anyone (John 4:2)

2. Why did Jesus tell the repentant thief on the cross, who was never baptized, "truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).

3. Why did Cornelius and those who were with him receive the Holy Spirit before they were baptized (Acts 10:44-48)

4. Why did Paul say, "For Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel" (1 Cor. 1:17)

5. Why is baptism left out of so many verses explaining salvation, such as "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16).

And the final question: Exactly what was baptism for in the OT?

Of course, in all these "baptism" Scriptures I am speaking of water, not the Spiritual baptism into the body of Christ.

3,324 posted on 09/14/2011 6:20:39 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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