[boatbums]

How meaningful can it be to say "If Judas had not betrayed Christ," or "Had Mary not given her assent?" What we know is that they did what they did and it was very important.

Couldn't agree more. However, I was not the one to suppose in print what despair we would have to face had Mary refused God's commission. I think this goes back in a way to the idea of God's predestination versus his foreknowledge. Did God predetermine that Mary would agree so that he had her be born without sin (not my view, BTW)? So, did Mary really have a free will choice? You can thank me later for conundrums that keep one up at night. :o)

[Mad Dawg]

Yeah.Hypothesis contrary to fact is not a safe game to play, and both sides play it. I catch myself starting to say something like that.

As to Mary's 'pre'-destination, in our view it's not God looking ahead. We think he beholds all time at once.

If I seem more than usually superficial it's because I am more than usually tired.