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To: xzins; wmfights
I really do not know the importance of pressing for any kind of (either) equal or proportional representation in the chaplaincy.

ONLY looking at the Stateside situation, the Bible-believing Baptists of our general strain who serve in the military are rarely found in base chapels; rarely seeking the services of military chaplains. Most leave the base/post to attend independent Baptist churches, and join independent Baptist churches; and rely on the pastoral ministries of civilian Baptist pastors.

I cannot speak with authority about other conservative/fundamentalist denominations. But when I was stationed at Whiteman AFB, Missouri, I was invited to two different Assemblies of God churches; one in Knob Noster, one in Clinton, MO. At that time, both of those churches were very much old-fashioned fundamentalist.

I accepted those invitations and discovered that those two Assemblies of God churches were both full of airman, NCOs, and officers from Whiteman AFB. So I assume that military personnel who were raised in, or strongly influenced by, fundamentalist/conservative Assemblies of God are much more interested in being members of off-base local churches than participation in the base/post chapels.

While in the Air Force I was sent to the Baptist chaplain once by my instructors in an NCO leadership school. The Chaplain was tasked with trying to convince me that the social drinking of alcohol was an acceptable compromise I should make, and attendance at NCO Club functions was important for me if I wanted to advance very far in rank!

Right! They sent me to a CHAPLAIN for this purpose. That chaplain was "Baptist," but from a very liberal line of them, perhaps Northern Convention.

While overseas in Korea in 1975/76 I sought out Baptist missionaries and attended their mission churches (of course, off base).

While I was in Korea, a new Baptist chaplain came who had been sent to Korea after having exposed a wife-swapping ring among officers at a New England base (forgot which now). The other chaplains at Kunsan AB took this new chaplain to 'A'-Town to break him in right, and he found himself quickly abandoned in town. He told this account at a Tuesday evening Bible study he began, and when asked whether he had some idea of what happened to the chaplains that evening after having led him to 'A'-Town, he answered, "They found their girlfriends maybe?---I really wouldn't know. I just returned to the base."

So I have always considered chaplains to be of the very liberal sort, with rare exception, and I have never wanted to have much to do with them, generally. When I was in the Service, I and my wife were always members of off-base Bible-believing churches.

Most of the independent Baptist churches around the States with which we fellowship are heavily engaged in supporting and financing off-base missions to military personnel. These missions are often storefronts or other facilities very near the military installations, providing a place, 7 days per week, for Servicemen/women to go and study the Bible, get Scriptural counselling, and hear the Gospel.

Many of these Serviceman's centers are set up outside of our bases in Europe as well.

The directors of such missions are supported from the missionary budgets of independent Baptist churches all over America.

Obviously, independent Baptists have no confidence in the spiritual nature (whatever that might really be) of the military chaplaincy, and therefore are heavily invested in off-base missions to the military.

Very many independent Baptist churches near military bases run buses on Sunday mornings to bring soldiers, sailors, and/or airman to church. Although we never rode the bus, my wife and I both came to Christ instrumentally by the ministry of just one such church. After we were saved, we never recommended any of my military friends or their families to attend the base chapel, but always invited them to our church, 4 miles off-base.

YES, I REALIZE there are unique situations in war zones, as well as on naval ships.

I know some good men (not chaplains) who are in the army, who conduct Bible studies and even worship services with other personnel in Afghanistan, and pay absolutely no attention to chaplains. Historic Baptist distinctives include the individual priesthood of the believer.

I have one friend in the ministry who actually served as "pastor" of a "church" on an aircraft carrier during the late 1970s. He had graduated from a Bible college and had been ordained by his home church before he enlisted in the Navy. He was not a Navy chaplain; he worked in ordnance. But he preached and taught the Bible on board, baptized converts by the authority of his home/ordaining church, etc. A goodly number of members of that "church" on board a carrier are known to have gone into the Christian ministry later.

So, I'm not sure I would even care about how many chaplains there are of any given denominational level. What I mean is, if I were in the Air Force today and stationed in Afghanistan, and there were no Baptist chaplains who believed the Bible, and I were to know what I know now from the Scriptures. . . I wouldn't really feel a very strong need of a chaplain at all. In fact, I'd just as soon begin winning my own buddies to Jesus Christ by the Gospel and start a "church" in the war zone.

57 posted on 08/25/2011 12:38:49 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: John Leland 1789; wmfights; P-Marlowe

I think that an American service-member, to the greatest extent possible, should lose absolutely none of his/her rights while in the military. That includes the right to worship, as you have done, whenever and whereever they want. Obviously, there are military situations that will make it impossible. When you’re in the middle of a firefight, your commander can tell you to go take hill 971, and while you might have wanted to go the mess tent and have a prayer meeting, you just can’t...because you have to obey orders.

It the same with chaplains. They have to obey the orders of the commanders appointed over them. They tell us to go here, then we go here. They tell us to go there, and we go there.

The difference with chaplains is that we are the military’s effort to protect the right of soldiers to FULLY worship in the denomination of their choice in any setting anywhere in the world.

The military must PLAN to have us along. It doesn’t have to plan to have you, your independent preacher friends, or you missionary friends go along for the ride. By Law, to preserve the religious rights of soldiers to worship, it has to take us along.

I’m not saying that we are better than your independent preacher friends or worse than them. What we are is part of the system that deploys to war zones and remote areas to MAKE SURE that religious services take place.

We MAKE SURE that independent preachers get a place and a chance to preach in remote areas and on installations. We do a lot of the preaching ourselves. And, yes, there are independent chaplains, too. And there are other benefits, too: your chaplains are trained, degreed counselors, financial advisors, biblical scholars and much more.

We do not want to give up the legal requirement that the military MUST make allowance for the religious needs of the troops. It must preserve those basic religious rights.


58 posted on 08/26/2011 10:04:10 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: John Leland 1789
Thank you for the detailed post. I'm sorry you had a negative experience with military chaplains. I'm sure there are some really good Bible thumping Christians in the group.

What I mean is, if I were in the Air Force today and stationed in Afghanistan, and there were no Baptist chaplains who believed the Bible, and I were to know what I know now from the Scriptures. . . I wouldn't really feel a very strong need of a chaplain at all.

I understand your point, but you are much more in the Word now than when you first became Born Again. How about the soldier whose eyes are opening for the first time?

60 posted on 08/26/2011 11:55:45 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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