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To: Mad Dawg
Like everything else we have in our essential poverty, Our Lord made a gift of Himself to us, an atoning gift. So, for the sake of atonement we offer Him back, for our sins and those of the whole world.

I see...That's where the failed thinking comes in...

Jesus did not offer himself to us...Jesus offered himself for us...To God...

God requires a sacrifice...Always did...Always will...Jesus became that sacrifice for us, once, for all...

We do not have Jesus to offer...He's sitting on a throne in heaven...

And there's even a kind of divine (I hope) sneakiness in this. "When he ascends on high he takes captivity captive,"and it is because I am (again, I hope and trust) in his train as captives were paraded before their captor in the Roman "triumph", that I offer my Lord the Son to myLord the Father,

But we are not captives in the sense of the phrase...The context of that phrase was when the OT saints were in Abraham's Bosom in a compartment down in Hell...They were captive behind locked doors...

Jesus went down, preached to them and unlocked the doors...That's when Jesus took captivity captive...The Gates of Hell prevailed against the OT saints...Jesus unlocked the Gates...That why he said the gates of hell will not prevail against his church...The church will rise immediately to heaven, without going to hell...

We don't go to Abraham's Bosom...

718 posted on 08/24/2011 2:51:19 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool
I see...That's where the failed thinking comes in...

Jesus did not offer himself to us...Jesus offered himself for us...To God...

I'm afraid that makes no sense. When Jesus offered himself to the Father was it not to pay our debt? So he offered his life both to us and for us to the Father.

We do not have Jesus to offer...He's sitting on a throne in heaven...

We will never agree on this because your idea of God and time is so different from ours. To me it appears that you make God subject to time.

As to your remarks about captivity, if no one in your group sinned it might make sense. But I agree with Luther that without Jesus our will is in bondage ab initio (since the Fall) and in a certain sense even after we accept Jesus into our hearts. I see that captivity right here on the RF and not just among Catholics either.

Also, in that Paul says, "Now I live, yet not I but Christ lives in me," and "The Holy Spirit prays in us with sighs too depp for words," it is not, strictly speaking, we who offer Christ to the Father, But Christ's self offering in us.

But the main difference is the difference in the thinking about time and eternity.

733 posted on 08/24/2011 3:18:01 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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