Posted on 07/19/2011 5:07:06 AM PDT by spirited irish
Hit a sore spot, did I...
You tell me then. What role does the soul play in our relationship to God, and you must do that without reference to the self, i.e., thought, memory, will, etc.
“The latter part of the first sentence doesn’t at all follow necessarily from the first. The second sentence merely asserts something about the soul that, in Christianity at least, is ontological nonsense.”
Spirited: Whether it makes sense or not depends upon one’s worldview. From the perspective of Christian theism it makes perfect sense while from any monist perspective it does not.
The writer points out that to be “created in the spiritual image of God the Father” is for each soul to be individually endowed with “thought, memory” and will. Therefore, for these spiritual attributes to be reduced to matter (this is materialist monism), the idea of soul becomes incoherent in that (a) it follows that if mind must be reduced to matter, so too must soul, and (b) soul without mind is meaningless.
If one’s worldview is founded on Eastern monism, then individual souls/minds cannot exist in that Eastern/neo-Platonist monism declares that all that exists is Absolute Spirit (or by other names such as christ-consciousness, the Force, Overmind) and everything that is is but a part of Absolute Spirit. In this view, the material realm is but an epiphenomenon of Absolute Spirit while soul/mind is but a spark of the Absolute Spirit. There is no individuality nor free will but rather collectivity (oneness). The author quoted Rob Bell’s monistic teaching as an example of Eastern/neo-Platonist monism.
aruanan: One could claim based on this, and some do, that since unborn infants don’t have thought, memory, or will, abortion merely returns the soul to God.
Spirited: Within Eastern monism that claim is correct. Upon the abortion of the baby its’ spark either reincarnates (transmigrates) into another body which may or may not be human depending on its’ karma, or again depending on its karma and in tandem with its’ evolutionary spirit-progress over millions of years, it may simply return to and be reabsorbed into the spiritual one-thing.
America was founded on the mind/body dualism unique to Christian theism. Only mind/body dualism allows for self-government and individual rights. We are however losing our individual rights because America is transitioning away from Christian theism and toward the collectivity of Eastern/neo-Platonist monism.
Communism by the way, is a system of “government” built upon the idea of collective-oneness.
ping to #64
Anyone, given the inclination, can make an argument for abortion regardless of how the soul is defined. I'm sure you know that, so can we please dispense with the hostilities if that's at all possible?
Very well put, but I don’t need to tell you that...
OK, Nicodemus.......
We are spiritually dead. While we are alive physically for a time, that does not give us spiritual life. In order to have spiritual life, we have to be born spiritually, just as we have to be born physically to have physical life.
The spiritual is reality just as the physical is, albeit, undetectable by our physical senses because we are dead to it. When we are in reality born by the Spirit in the spiritual realm, then we have the ability to perceive the reality of it. The spiritual birth is a reality, not a metaphor.
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John 3
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
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2 Corinthians 4:17-18
For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
The mind and the body simply CANNOT be separated from each other and compartmentalized. They are inextricably combined. It's a well known SCIENTIFIC fact that the state of mind of a person can affect the physical workings of the body. Stress, as the easiest and most obvious example, can cause any number of conditions or exacerbate any of them.
If one believes that we are body, soul, and spirit, then there is no way to disengage them from each other. They are all us.
It's glaringly inconsistent to compartmentalize our lives and say that the physical body is only subject to the physical forces in this material existence while the non-physical side is subject to only non-physical influences not part of this world.
It in effect hogties God and his ability to work in one's life if one denies His ability to do so.
The supernatural imposes itself on the natural regularly. Jesus did it time without count when He healed people of disease, calmed the sea, multiplied the loaves and fishes. To erect a dividing wall between the two and put terms and limitations on God is to effectively cut oneself off from any opportunity for God to work in their life. Even Jesus couldn't do miracles in some places because of the people's lack of faith.
In effect, it is denying the omnipotence of God and calling Him a liar when our beliefs contradict the clear teachings of the Bible. Who of us knows better what the cause of something is? Certainly not any *scientists* who make claims of their own omniscience in making blanket statements about things of which they know nothing.
[ That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ]
Like I said... is “THAT”.. a belief in dogma -OR- something alive.?..
Like I said... is “THAT”.. a belief in dogma -OR- something alive.?..
Spirited: To question everything is to believe nothing, even responses provided within morally informed and disciplined discourse. Nihilistic skepticism is deadly to the spirit and the intellect because undisciplined questioning tends to eviscerate the processes of thought.
The faith is in a person. Dogma doesn't save anyone. Jesus does.
Nevertheless, the old nature cannot be reformed; it must die. The only way to see heaven is to be born spiritually. Not a change as in an evolving into something better, but a new creation.
Jesus gave the example in the Gospels of a grain of wheat which dies and is put in the ground (buried), and then brings forth new life, not a caterpillar, reaching the next stage in human evolution.
[ To question everything is to believe nothing, even responses provided within morally informed and disciplined discourse. ]
Its not a matter of what you believe its a matter of WHO You ARE.. that counts..
Jesus DIDn’t say you need to change your Mind......
He said, “You MUST be born again..”
[ Nihilistic skepticism is deadly to the spirit and the intellect because undisciplined questioning tends to eviscerate the processes of thought. ]
Since you brought it up.. Being a christian is not about how smart(accurate) you are.. even dumb people can be christians.. Which is testified by so many christian religious memes....Most all christian religions are Cargo cults.. with dogmatic shaman.. Which is why Jesus in John ch 10 was calling “them” OUT of the sheep pen(s)... to the “pasture”.. (Ps 23)
Jesus came to make ALL religions Obsolete...... AND DID!..
Jesus did NOT forbid sheep pens.. he just called them out of them..
It appears (to me) that sheep pens are needed as holding tanks for people drunk on the wine of this world..
You know until they sober up and COME OUT OF THEM..
Jesus DIDn’t say you need to change your Mind......
He said, “You MUST be born again..”
Spirited: One cannot be born again unless one’s will assents. In this light, “changing one’s mind” precedes assent.
That’s what repentance is all about.
Back to the original question, being born again is a reality, not a metaphor.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Ooops, ping to post 76
[ One cannot be born again unless one’s will assents. In this light, “changing one’s mind” precedes assent. ]
So.... you think being born again is mental activity?..
and/or performing rites or ceremony’s or even obeisance..
Thats a very religious way of looking at things.. feel free..
I don’t have religious bone in my body.. vexes many..
[ 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. ]
Thats a metaphorical phrase if I ever heard one..
Unless you’re talking about magic..
The Body of Christ and Bride of Christ are both metaphors of the same thing from different angles..
They are real in a metaphorical kind of way.. “in christ” may refer to them/that..
“In Messiah”.. is the same thing, for christ is the messiah..
The Body of Christ is a metaphorical instrument for “WE” are not Christ.. the Messiah.. you know Jesus <;)..
Many get their literals mixed up with their metaphors.. and their metaphors mixed up with their literals..
Makes for good comedy and entertainment.. but drives some folks nuts..
Most christian religions are made that way..
“So.... you think being born again is mental activity?..
Thats a very religious way of looking at things.. feel free..
I don’t have religious bone in my body.. vexes many..”
Spirited: We are souls. We have bodies. If we were but preprogrammed fleshy machines your cynical retort might make a very peculiar sort of sense, as it is it does not.
Every choice you make between one thing and another is an act of will, which is spiritual activity, for mind is the citadel of soul. Upon reading my response, you “thought it over” and then “willfully chose” to contrast your lack of religion with what you falsely believe is mine. In other words, mental activity and will preceded your “chosen” reaction.
Being born again is not some passive act done to us, for God Who gave us free will does not override our willful choices. To be born again is an offer of salvation. We can accept or not. Either way, mental activity and will precede our acceptance or rejection.
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