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The Reformers did not want to steer the Church in any way. They just wanted to control their piece of the pie. And, interestingly enough, your prose here posits that men can thwart God and that He has to find a second recourse. Not a good fit with your Calvinist friends.

I still say your knowledge of the "Reformers" and their motives is extremely lopsided. Seeing as how men like Martin Luther was a Roman Catholic monk, it seems quite unlikely to me that his intent was to "control his piece of the pie". Had Rome admitted their errors and resolved to restore the church back to the original Biblical standards, the reformers would have continued in their professions. Luther continued to hold onto many Roman Catholic traditions even when he was forced out and persecuted. The problem with Rome was due to the sin of pride and a total unwillingness to relinquish temporal power and wealth. Naturally, those in power would not give up their comfortable and regal palaces and there is little change in that resolve even to this day.

When I said, "This is why God continues to save people and is still glorified apart from the Roman Catholic Church. He will never allow men to stop his will.", I did NOT say, nor even imply, that any man can thwart God so that he must go to a Plan B. My point - which I thought was clear enough - is that God proves every day and in every heart that comes to him in faith that he does not NEED a "Church", nor any organization on earth, to open the eyes and ears of those who seek his truth. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church goes so far as to say that no one CAN be saved outside of her. What I asserted is that God doesn't need anyone or anything to reveal the Gospel to one who seeks to know it. God, however, has given his children the responsibility to preach the Gospel and to join in fellowship to learn together, pray together, worship together and grow in the faith. But God is never hindered, nor can he be hindered, from reaching those earnestly searching for him.

One last thing, my "Calvinist friends" can read for themselves what I post and I can pretty much guarantee that none will stop being my "friends" based on this dialog. They already know I am not Calvinist in my theology, though I think much of what Calvin taught was Biblically correct. We DO agree on the main issue which is salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

I hope you and your family had a happy Fourth.

I still say your knowledge of the "Reformers" and their motives is extremely lopsided.

By 'lopsided', you actually mean 'accurate'.

Seeing as how men like Martin Luther was a Roman Catholic monk, it seems quite unlikely to me that his intent was to "control his piece of the pie".

The proof, as they say, is actually in the pudding. Taste it and see. Look at his life and the estate that he owned after his vows of poverty were violated.

Luther continued to hold onto many Roman Catholic traditions even when he was forced out and persecuted. The problem with Rome was due to the sin of pride and a total unwillingness to relinquish temporal power and wealth. Naturally, those in power would not give up their comfortable and regal palaces and there is little change in that resolve even to this day.

You mean like this guy?

The Reformation was a man made Plan B.

The thing is that it is not about individual men, but about God.

We DO agree on the main issue which is salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

I'm rather unimpressed by the dialogue of your Calvinist friends and remain unconvinced that they believe in the sovereignty of Christ. I think that they believe in the sovereignty of the image in the mirror, and their posts shine out as a beacon to attesting that.