Posted on 06/29/2011 5:46:53 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore
After St. Peter died upside down on a cross in the Circus of Caligula and Nero, the surviving Christians obtained his body and buried him quickly nearby, on the steeply sloping Vatican Hill to the north of the Circus. That hill had become a makeshift graveyard four months earlier after the fire of Rome had killed so many residents of the metropolis that their loved ones began to use any open spot they could find on the roadsides radiating outside the city. . . .
When the tropaion of Peter was found underneath the high altar during archaeological escavations in 1941, there was great rejoicing, because it matched what Gaius had written at the end of the second century. Even more exciting was the fact that they found bones in what was clearly Peter’s tomb underneath the victory monument.
(Excerpt) Read more at integratedcatholiclife.org ...
So says you.
Jesus says His flesh is true food, and His blood, true drink.
He did not retract when those who were following Him left Him because of these words. Words that He repeated several times and did not go on to soften after they left.
Yep, it is Catholic Church, the one that has been around since the beginning, the one Christ promised to guide through the Holy Spirit so that it would prevail even when faced with the gates of hell.
Be flip if you like, but Christ said what He said,
“Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”
And who is that Word? Jesus
And how do we receive this word that is not merely bread?
In the Eucharist.
To Jesus, His own, It is His church to which I faithfully, happily and gratefully belong.
This still does not explain why Jesus(God)changes Simon’s name to rock! Why? Why? Why?
It makes no sense in the context of the passage other than that Jesus is saying something about Simon as rock.
IT MAKES NO SENSE OTHERWISE!
He does not say, This is rock and upon this rock I will build my church,
He says YOU ARE ROCK Why? Why? Why?
We know that Jesus was a master orator and wordsmith in the tradition (!!!) of rabbis. I think that, in light of many of Christ's teachings and parables being on several levels, Peter was nicknamed small rock in comparison to Jesus being big rock. IOW, Peter is small to Jesus, but is to act in the role of leader when the big and authentic leader has departed (the keys, the keys).
I think that many times people miss all the levels of meaning that Jesus taught to us and the various combinations of copying and translations have taken away some of those meanings or lessened their understandability.
Don't make too big an issue of the keys. :-) Peter was given no authority or priviledges greater than any other Apostle.
On this thread alone you have seen at least one of your esteemed "educated" Catholic friends interpret the Catechism to believe the Church was built upon Peter, the ROCK.
Quoting correctly just won't do.
Further, would the following qualify as an "Infallible" declaration of a Pope?
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
If not, why not.
Are you ready for the double speak responses to that one? Just had a conversation with MarkBsnr who insisted that the above statement was not what Catholics believe. Guess the Pope was wrong on that one or something.
Jesus didn't tell you did he???
Perhaps it was because Peter was stubborn...Once his mind was made up, even Jesus had a hard time gettin' thru to him...
'So you Peter are as stubborn as an immovable rock'...But upon 'THIS' Rock (the Rock of our Salvation), I will build my church...If Peter was the 'big' rock, why didn't Jesus say, 'Peter, Rock, on this rock you will build my church...Why would Jesus build his church on someone other than himself???
Why would Jesus build his church on a man??? One who had failed so many times and one who was given the job of carrying the Gospel to the Jews, only to be lost in obscurity, while the Gospel and subsequent adoption of the Gentiles into the church was front and center in the scriptures???
Nor has He chosen to elaborate on salvation within the Catholic Church.
With the exception, of course of you, "I am the church." Iscool.
You mean his "Pebbliness"? :)
Whether "Rock", "Pebble", or whatever, I agree with the Catechism in that Peter could be considered as the Rock of the Church as opposed to the mistaken belief of so many Catholics that he was the Rock on which the Church was built.
Very good.
Don't make too big an issue of the keys. :-) Peter was given no authority or priviledges greater than any other Apostle.
The whole 'feed my sheep' deal was given directly to Peter, as well.
Quoting correctly just won't do.
Further, would the following qualify as an "Infallible" declaration of a Pope?
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
If not, why not.
Excellent question.
One of the best explanations that I have found is this:
Also, consider that when Unam Sanctam was enacted:
1) There really and ideally was only one visible Church in the mind of the Catholic Church.
2) Unam Sanctam makes NO pronouncement on the validity of the existence of other Churches as such.
3) Today, the Catholic Church recognizes that there are other valid Churches aside from the Catholic Church proper, however they are imperfect and a departure from the Faith (my addition).
4) This current recognition does not affect Unam Sanctam in any way. It was, and always has been, meant for Catholics and for any who leave the Catholic Church having been once convinced of its Truth. It has never been meant for those born outside the Catholic Church (as the situation of these is mitigated by the principle of invincible ignorance).
I think that this is valid, given that this was written a quarter of a millennium before the Reformation started to take off.
Please see my reply to Old Reggie.
Oh, I don't know. The CCC is quite elaborate.
Yep, double speak. Just as I thought. Unum Sanctum says essentially that the RCC trumps Christ when it comes to salvation.
I suspect that you read Unum Sanctum with the same level of understanding that you do the Bible.
At least you are honest enough to admit that you are not the church...
And was passed on to all the disciples to feed the sheep...Was not a job given exclusively to Peter...
Sorry, epic fail. Jesus says, you are rock AND on this rock not BUT on this rock. Don’t go changing the words now :/
And, for the record, Peter never failed after the descent of the Holy Spirit. As God always does, He gives to those called to great things what they need to be successful.
Protestants don’t seem to have a lot of faith in what God can do and does for those who love Him and obey Him, do they?
Jesus built the church, because it is His church, and the source and summit of that church is His true presence in the sacred sacrament of the altar, the Holy Eucharist.
And, Peter certainly is not lost in obscurity.
Ask people who stands at the gates of heaven.
Actually, He does, doesn't he?
"Thou art Peter (rock) and upon this rock I will build my church."
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