Posted on 05/31/2011 11:34:50 AM PDT by sigzero
Mary was a virgin who was to conceive by being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and give birth to the Son of God. Few in Christian realms would deny Mary was a virgin and remained a virgin through pregnancy and the birth of Christ. This was the ultimate fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah:
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14, emphasis added)
However, Mary’s virginity after the birth of Christ can become a heated debate in some circles. Though some may think this is a Roman Catholic versus Protestant view, it is not. Many Protestants, including people like Martin Luther and John Calvin, have held to Mary remaining a virgin for the duration of her life. Let’s look at the issues in a little more detail.
(Excerpt) Read more at answersingenesis.org ...
>>So which “body of belivers” is THE body of belivers?<<
Those who accept Christ as their personal Savior. Those who believe on Him.
Beautiful post!
Bookmarked.
You want to disregard the original languages and treat the English as authoritative, that's your choice.
Yes, people who are well-versed in scripture (and I really, really love 'em) disagree constantly and passionately about almost everything.
So, is the Holy Ghost real? Is He God?
Is he to guide us in all truth? Or did Jesus lie? Maybe He was mistaken?
Or, perhaps, a system which produces hundreds of thousands of Christians, more or less well-versed in scripture, who nevertheless disagree about baptism, about salvation, about separation, about wine, about music, about everything - perhaps it's that system which is mistaken, and not Jesus or the Holy Ghost.
Think about it.
>>What is this slur about? Never mind, don’t elaborate. <<
I need to elaborate. It was not meant as a slur. It was meant as a simple statement of fact. Nothing more and nothing less.
>>The condescension drips from your fingers.<<
No. That is your inference based on my admittedly poor choice of words. I should not have used the word “comics”. It was not just Catholics that could not read in that day. And lets be frank. During the dark ages the Catholic church almost single handedly kept science and communication going.
But there was that excommunication of a certain heretic that had the audacity to claim the earth was not the center of the universe. ;)
Depends on where I am. In Kentucky I have LOTS of referrals, but it started with where my friends attend. Here in Seattle, I consider myself an interloper and attend various congregations. And the gatherings are often not even what one would call “church”. They are impromptu discussions.
I had a man once tell me that he chooses his church on the quality of their potlucks. I thought he was joking, and he was to a degree. But he went on to explain the larger point and why people “go to church” now and why they did in “biblical times”.
“i am in the Church, which means i am in Jesus.”
Actually you have that backwards. I am in Jesus which means I am in the Church.
You haven’t explained how, except for a reference to “referrals.”
How do you know which is the local gathering that is the “church” you are supposed to submit to for mediation?
Yeah, I knew a Jehovah’s Witness that said what attracted him to it was its unity. He said you could go to any JW church on the planet on any one day and get the exact same message.
Unity is fine, but I will not “agree just to agree” and not really be unified. What I normally do is avoid the silly arguments about the meaning of specific prophesy in revelation that we cannot know beforehand and other such stuff. But on things that are quite clear and supported in multiple places I take a different attitude. It is important as long as it does not become hostile. Then again, there is this:
Acts 15
36 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.” 37 Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38 but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39 They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40 but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord.
Looks like even in “the Church” there can be disagreements. The Apostles were just men. So were the church fathers. And being a man, I know the heart of man.
Let me make this simpler: If you went to a local gathering and found yourself in disagreement, with the teaching there, would you listen to the local gathering, or depart?
>>Let me make this simpler: If you went to a local gathering and found yourself in disagreement, with the teaching there, would you listen to the local gathering, or depart?<<
Depends on what we disagree on. If it is a bullet doctrine, yes, I would leave. Beyond that, it depends. Some yes, some no.
BTW, I use a friends phrase, “bullet doctrine”. It means doctrine I would take a bullet for.
At this point, the conversation has become tedious. I find no reason to examine any evidence when a main doctrine of Catholics lacks any teaching in the NT.
Nowhere is it taught that Mary was always a virgin yet Catholics defend it as if it were the most important aspect of the gospel. Truly it isn’t even an aspect of the gospel. The gospel is about Christ and not about Mary. If you want to eleveate her above her positon go ahead but I won’t do it. She was a blessed among women. She was still a woman that made mistakes and sinned and had sex with her husband. Jesus is my Savior not Mary and I am not the one that needs her to remain a virgin so I can elevate her.
>>How do you know which is the local gathering that is the “church” you are supposed to submit to for mediation?<<
I meditate in private. I need no gathering of believers to meditate or pray. In fact I find both pretty impossible while in the gathering of a lot of people. I save it for when I am alone with the lord, except for intercessory prayer and other “two or three are gathered together” situations.
For crying out loud! Your post hit me like a rock. I’ve been arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin all this time! I really try not to get into those sorts of things.
I’m outa here!
And thanks!
So in what sense is the Scripture “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector” active?
Is this Scripture no longer in effect?
It seems to me that you are the judge of the church, that you choose which local gathering suits you.
I said this a while ago but got sucked back in. I usually try not to get into these discussions either. Im out again and shutting down my computer. Blessing!
Good catch. It is always a pleasure to receive instruction from one who is more erudite than myself. Blessings upon you for your love for the truth.
Yea, and Amen! The Mary who could measure up to the normal demands of normal life, and meet the normal duties of a normal wife and mother is the kind of role model I can recommend to my daughters! YES - God wants to give His children amazing supernatural encounters from time to time. But NO such experiences do not excuse us from the normal duties of normal living.
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