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To: Belteshazzar

not trying to be inflammatory, i apologize. name them? sola scriptura, sola fide, consubstantiation? ( not sure i spelled that right )
i do blame the popes and their advisors as well, i believe they excommunicated Luther if my memory serves me right. the Church was corrupt and needed a Reformation, just not a doctrinal revolution!
BTW - the Church has always taught the normative authority of the Scriptures, what it doesn’t believe in is private interpretation.


426 posted on 05/22/2011 3:54:54 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

You may not be trying to be inflammatory; nevertheless you are. You could work on it, which would not be contrary to your doctrine.

Sola Scriptura. This of course is an abbreviated phrase that refers to a doctrine that can and should be fleshed out. If one wants simply to bandy about such terms, even assuming we each meant the same thing with the words, little will be gained. What we are really talking about is the normative authority of the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. To assert a teaching that contradicts the normative authority of the Scriptures is to deny their authority. That is plain logic. It takes no advanced degree to figure it out. The plain fact is that the early church fathers did not advance teachings that were at variance with the Scriptures. If you can show me where this is not so in the fathers, please do so. The Reformers were well aware of and very respectful toward the fathers, disregarding them only where they were in clear violation of the plain meaning of the Scriptures ... and even then with great respect, as is due our fathers in the faith.

Sola fide. Please, don’t make me laugh. My tagline should be enough to show that, at least in the case of Ambrose, this is the faith of the fathers. And go ahead, check the context of the quote. You have the reference. I am not taking Ambrose out of context. Does the “sola” forbid or even hinder good works, not at all. That is a false charge, but leveled often even in the face of clear statement to the contrary. But it wouldn’t be the first time in world history where slander is promulgated “for the greater good.” Salvation by faith in the completed work of Christ is early church doctrine, to be sure not always enumerated as unambiguously as it should have been. But very easy to find in the fathers. To call such a thing “unknown to the early church,” again, please ... Get real.

Consubstantiation. Not the Lutheran doctrine. Sorry. I have gone through this with a few Protestant posters who didn’t like being corrected and reacted rather badly. But check your sources. This is not Lutheran doctrine. I invite anyone reading this to disprove me ... anyone.

The Reformation was not a doctrinal revolution. If you believe that it only shows that either you are unknowingly misinformed or ... well.

You say the church has always believed in the normative authority of the Scriptures, well, I think you should examine more carefully Catholic doctrine. Its position is a little less firm (assume understatement here) than you are indicating.


517 posted on 05/22/2011 7:16:37 PM PDT by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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