Camping May 21 Rapture and the Replacement Theology Lie

vanity | 5/21/11 | marbren

[marbren]

Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.

A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.

The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.

This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.

So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

you and i both agree Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture must not contradict each other to be true. so, show me where the Scriptures say Mary wasn’t assumed. or if you can’t show me from Scripture, show me where Mary’s grave is?

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

oh, our mutual friend Ireneaus would be so disapointed in you. he firmly believed in apostolic succession and listed the bishops of Rome from Peter to his day to prove the true Church, from the pretenders. an evil and adultreous people seek signs, the Popes excercise spiritual authority over the visible Church. Of course, you don’t believe in The Church, do you?

[boatbums]

Good point! I also don't need to speak Greek or Hebrew to read and understand God's word. Why should the ECF’s only be understood in Latin? For most of them, I doubt Latin was even THEIR native language.

[metmom]

I note that you join in the mockery yourself. Careful of that which you mock. Harold Camping was and is a fool at a minimum and a false prophet at worst. Neither are held in regard by the Bible. But, neither are mockers and scoffers.

Worth repeating.

The distinction that is failed to be acknoledged by so many is that Campings failure in this prediction only discredits him, not Scripture and not sola Scriptura.

Those who use one man's foolishness to discredit the Word as the final source of authority for spiritual matters are being disingenuous and desperately grasping at straws in their almost hysterical efforts to diminish the authority of Scripture.

Proverbs 9:7-8 Whoever corrects a scoffer gets himself abuse,and he who reproves a wicked man incurs injury. Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.

Proverbs 21:24 "Scoffer" is the name of the arrogant, haughty man who acts with arrogant pride.

Proverbs 24:9 The devising of folly is sin,and the scoffer is an abomination to mankind.

[Quix]

[CynicalBear]

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Even the current RCC teaching is in contradiction to their own claimed church fathers.

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies III.1.1, in Alexander Roberts and W. H. Rambaugh, trans., in The Writings of Irenaeus (Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1874)

For Irenaeus, the church doctrine is never purely traditional; on the contrary, the thought that there could be some truth transmitted exclusively viva voce (orally) is a Gnostic line of thought.[ Ellen Flesseman-Van Leer, Tradition and Scripture in the Early Church (Assen: Van Gorcum, 1953), 133.]

In fact, the apostle Paul himself states that the gospel he initially preached orally could be verified by the written Scriptures.[ 'Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures' (1 Cor. 15:1-4).]The church as a whole, up to the thirteenth century, never viewed tradition to be a source of revelation.

You need to do more study of the church prior to Trent. You might learn the difference between the church prior and now. It's obvious to me that you know little of the early church prior to Trent.

[metmom]

Sola Scriptura arose in response to the bizarre and oftentimes moneygrubbing excesses and corruption then extant in “your religion.” These were cast off by the Reformers, who determined never again to accept unscriptural excess and corruption such as occurred in the medieval nightmare known as the Roman Catholic Church of the era.

And for wanting to eliminate greed, immorality, and corruption, the Reformers were what? Ex-communicated and burned at the stake. And they're still being vilified today.

Seems that some in those days weren't interested a good house cleaning and giving up what must have been a pretty good deal for themselves.

[CynicalBear]

>> Pope CynicalBear thinks it is symbolic<<

We’re done here. I’m not going to debate a juvenile. Grow up.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

i don’t blame sola scriptura for Camping.

i blame the thousands and thousands of denominations and sects, all claiming sola scriptura, all teaching contradictory doctrines. just in the town next to me, there is a Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian and Pentecostal church at one intersection!! all 4 have a Bible containing John 17.
what a testimony for the world!!!

[metmom]

Memorizing Scripture and meditating on it are a source of great blessing. It’s easy to know what God wants and expects of you when you are so familiar with how He thinks.

Psalm 1:1-3 Blessed is the man
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
but his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night.

He is like a tree
planted by streams of water
that yields its fruit in its season,
and its leaf does not wither.
In all that he does, he prospers.

Psalm 119:11 I have stored up your word in my heart,
that I might not sin against you.

[boatbums]

you are correct they were not infallibly inspired, but what they do testify to is the universal Faith that was handed down by the Apostles. so you see the same Faith in Corinth, as in Jerusalem, as in India, as in Rome, as in Alexandra, etc. We also know that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth and we also know that all the groups who weren’t part of the Catholic Church, denied the deity of Christ or taught other heredical teachings. they also testify to the Catholic Faith, and we can clearly see it’s doctrines in their writings. think about it, 1,500 years is a long time for The Church to be teaching heresy before the reformers showed up.

Jesus DID promise the Holy Spirit to guide his church in all truths. What I think you are incorrect about - and which I can understand that you are because of whom you allow to tell you what you should believe - it that the CHURCH is us. The body of Christ is the universal, spiritual, called-out assembly of all believers in him from all time. It isn't, like you seem to favor, comprised wholly and completely with the organization which calls itself the Roman Catholic Church. I know that this is hard to hear, but when Jesus prayed for this body, this church, that we would all be one as he and the Father are one, I am positively sure his prayers were answered in the affirmative. He always does the Father's will so anything he prayed was in the Father's will. Git it? I think getting over this hurdle in thinking may do wonders to your whole grasp of the things of God. Not only for how he deals with Israel. Try it.

[boatbums]

You got that right! ;o)

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

what you don’t understand is the Church is visible, and One. you also don’t understand Jesus gave this Church authority to teach, and promised the Holy Spirit to lead it to all truth. this truth is the same in the 1st century, 2nd century, 3rd century and so on.... and yes, Jesus was heard in John 17 and the true Church is One. The true Church has been here for 2,000 years, if you believe the Catholic Faith you are part of this Body. If you reject the Catholic Faith, but claim faith in “Jesus”, are you believing a false Jesus or the true one? It seems to me, Jesus is One, there is One Faith and One Baptism. I don’t have the authority to start a new church, and neither does anyone else. how are you sure Jesus’s prayer was answered, when you withhold fellowship from His Church? doesn’t it bother you, that you have to wait until the 16th century when you can find people who you can worship with? i want to follow Jesus and that means being in His Body and following doctrines handed down from the Apostles. i can find the Church in all 2,000 years, can you?

[Lee N. Field]

be warned, some will charge you with being “anti-jewish” for posting verses such as those.

It has happened.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

i was suprised to find a tactic of the left would be used on a conservative site, but i think everyone sees thru such tactics.

[metmom]

Are you trying to say that you could claim anything and if I can’t prove from scripture that it’s not true you would make it part of your faith? How preposterous is that?

Preposterous indeed.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Until it's backed up by fact, it's merely opinion and nobody is obligated to believe any random statement someone makes just on their say so.

If anyone wants to assert that Mary was assumed, they have to PROVE that it happened. It is not truth just because it was uttered by someone who wished it to be so and nobody is obligated to believe someone else's flights of fancy.

[Belteshazzar]

You may not be trying to be inflammatory; nevertheless you are. You could work on it, which would not be contrary to your doctrine.

Sola Scriptura. This of course is an abbreviated phrase that refers to a doctrine that can and should be fleshed out. If one wants simply to bandy about such terms, even assuming we each meant the same thing with the words, little will be gained. What we are really talking about is the normative authority of the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. To assert a teaching that contradicts the normative authority of the Scriptures is to deny their authority. That is plain logic. It takes no advanced degree to figure it out. The plain fact is that the early church fathers did not advance teachings that were at variance with the Scriptures. If you can show me where this is not so in the fathers, please do so. The Reformers were well aware of and very respectful toward the fathers, disregarding them only where they were in clear violation of the plain meaning of the Scriptures ... and even then with great respect, as is due our fathers in the faith.

Sola fide. Please, don’t make me laugh. My tagline should be enough to show that, at least in the case of Ambrose, this is the faith of the fathers. And go ahead, check the context of the quote. You have the reference. I am not taking Ambrose out of context. Does the “sola” forbid or even hinder good works, not at all. That is a false charge, but leveled often even in the face of clear statement to the contrary. But it wouldn’t be the first time in world history where slander is promulgated “for the greater good.” Salvation by faith in the completed work of Christ is early church doctrine, to be sure not always enumerated as unambiguously as it should have been. But very easy to find in the fathers. To call such a thing “unknown to the early church,” again, please ... Get real.

Consubstantiation. Not the Lutheran doctrine. Sorry. I have gone through this with a few Protestant posters who didn’t like being corrected and reacted rather badly. But check your sources. This is not Lutheran doctrine. I invite anyone reading this to disprove me ... anyone.

The Reformation was not a doctrinal revolution. If you believe that it only shows that either you are unknowingly misinformed or ... well.

You say the church has always believed in the normative authority of the Scriptures, well, I think you should examine more carefully Catholic doctrine. Its position is a little less firm (assume understatement here) than you are indicating.

[bronx2]

You need to focus on 1Cor 11:2 ,2 Thes 2:15 and 2 Tim 1 13-14 which validate tradition. Your cite is taken out of context.

Current Catholic teaching is in concert with he early church fathers. Irenaeus was the Catholic bishop of Lyon who also wrote a stout defense of the papacy.

Your source is taken from Ellen Flessman Van Leer who in 1953 made a contention that Irenaeus and Tertullian advocated Sola scriptura. Need lees to say her tome has been discredited by most scholars and she is not recognized as a credible source except for a few evangelicals probably like Camping.

Perhaps you can get a quote from Camping instead of Ellen to tickle your fancy. It would be better to concentrate on the saving powers of Jesus than discredited sources as Ellen who I heard died several years ago.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

i accept your admonition on being inflammatory.

ss- it’s not Biblical, see 2 Thessalonians and the Church has always followed the Apostolic Tradition. even Lutherans do, there is no Scripture commanding infant baptism, yet Lutherans correctly practice it, because the Church received this teaching from the Apostles.
sf - the hang up is the “sola” no where does the Bible use faith alone, in fact James specifically contradicts this doctrine. even Luther saw this and wanted James tossed from the canon!
c- not quite sure on the history of this one, but “This is My Body” means just that.
the reformation was nothing less than a doctrinal revolution, every doctrine was open to question and the result is utter confusion. the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion!
i am very well versed in Catholic doctrine and the authority of the Scriptures. what is not allowed is everyone being their own authority, this is found no where in the Bible.

[CynicalBear]

>>Your source is taken from Ellen Flessman Van Leer who in 1953 made a contention that Irenaeus and Tertullian advocated Sola scriptura.<<

It’s a direct quote from Irenaeus. He would have called you a Gnostic and a heretic.

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies III.1.1, in Alexander Roberts and W. H. Rambaugh, trans., in The Writings of Irenaeus (Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1874)