Shake out a few over here
Posted on 05/15/2011 7:27:30 PM PDT by TheDingoAteMyBaby
John Evans is in no hurry to get married.
The 25-year-old returned LDS missionary lives with his parents, works full time, takes night classes toward an English degree and, with law school looming, is building up his savings.
Evans goes on dates, but they tend to be expensive so he prefers developing friendships first. Sometimes he finds it easier just to hang out with the guys at his Mormon fraternity.
“My dating pace is right for me,” Evans says. “I don’t feel stressed.”
That kind of modern nonchalance is what may be worrying LDS President Thomas S. Monson and other Mormon leaders, who addressed the issue at the church’s recent General Conference.
“Brethren, there is a point at which it’s time to think seriously about marriage and to seek a companion with whom you want to spend eternity,” Monson said at an all-male priesthood meeting.
“If you choose wisely and if you are committed to the success of your marriage, there is nothing in this life which will bring you greater happiness.”
Apostle Richard G. Scott spoke even more emphatically the next day.
“If you are a young man of appropriate age and are not married, don’t waste time in idle pursuits,” Scott urged. “Get on with life and focus on getting married. Don’t just coast through this period of life.”
Their concern is natural. After all, marriage is a core Mormon teaching and temple marriage is a prerequisite for the highest Mormon heaven.
But LDS leaders may be fighting a cultural shift. Traditional dating is almost a quaint custom on college campuses, where hanging out in groups and casual sex “hook ups” are increasingly common. Students also are worried about their financial stability.
“People in the country are pairing up,” says Brigham Young University sociologist Marie Cornwall, who teaches a class in family and social change. “They’re just not getting married.”
Past church presidents also counseled young Mormon men not to delay marriage, but there is a new urgency.
The median age for a first marriage in the U.S. has climbed to 25.8 for women and 27.4 for men. In heavily Mormon Utah, the median age for first-time brides has jumped from 20 in 1970 to 22 in 2008, and from 22 to 24 for men.
So what’s slowing down Mormons?
The picture is complicated, especially in individual cases, social scientists and LDS teachers say, but a clear trend is evident: Today’s young Mormons are not nearly as confident in the future, in their economic well-being or in their choices as their parents were.
“I really do plan on finding someone,” Evans says, “and getting married.”
Just not yet.
Monson placed the blame for Mormon men’s marital foot-dragging on financial anxiety, insistence on finding a “soul mate” and having too much fun being single. Yet there is no shame in a couple having to “scrimp and save,” Monson assured the young men. “You will grow closer together as you learn to sacrifice,” he said.
He told them not to insist on finding the perfect mate, but rather a young woman “with whom you can be compatible.” A previous LDS prophet, Spencer W. Kimball, once called the idea of a “soul mate” a “fiction and an illusion.”
The issue of finding the perfect match seems especially prevalent on LDS-dominated campuses, said David Dollahite, who teaches marriage and family relations at BYU. It produces a kind of “market mentality,” Dollahite said.
“The young men think, ‘I am dating a 9.7, but if I wait, maybe I could get a 9.9.”‘
Financial instability is also real, given the country’s economic downturn. And societal attitudes are pressing in around them, said Larry Tippetts, who teaches classes on courtship and marriage at the University of Utah’s LDS institute.
“In my generation, when you met someone, you just got married, confident it would work out,” Tippetts says. “But 50 years ago it was easier to eke out a living than it is now.”
At the same time, he says, fear of a bad choice may be paralyzing young men in their search for a spouse. “These kids are terrified of making a mistake,” he said. “They think too much and overanalyze everything.”
One problem is pretty stark, Tippetts said. Many young Mormon men, even 21-year-olds who have served missions in foreign lands, have no idea how to set up one-on-one dates — because they may never have been on one.
For at least two decades, LDS leaders have counseled high-schoolers not to be romantically involved or “go steady,” but rather to engage mostly in “group dates.”
That has been a boon to lots of Mormon boys who were too shy or awkward to ask out a girl, but it hasn’t prepared young men for real dating and courtship.
“It’s hard if you’ve gone only on group dates before your mission, then you come back with the same mind-set. But now they say, `Go, go, go.’ For a lot of guys it’s too much,” says Richard Spratt, a 21-year-old returned missionary from Bountiful, Utah. “It takes effort to go on an actual date, which discourages a lot of guys.”
Facebook and texting were meant to enhance dialogue but may have “crippled” the dating scene, says Robin Walton, a Mormon from Las Vegas.
“They’ve altered our ability to interact face to face,” says Walton, 22 and a University of Utah graduate student. “After we’ve learned everything about each other on Facebook, what do we talk about on the first date?”
Child 1 - 27
Child 2 - 30
Child 3 - 33
Child 4 - 36
Child 5 - 39
If you want them you can do it. And closer in age is easier still.
Ah. Reminds me of a time my family was on vacation and we went into a small diner. We were seated across the dining room from a family that took up two booths.
Man, woman, two kids in one booth with a high chair at the end; Five kids in the other booth with a high chair at the end of that one. None of the kids looked older than twelve.
My dad noticed me looking at them. He glanced at them, went back to eating, and calmly and quietly said:
"Nine months and fifteen minutes apart."
Do you have a reference or link of some kind that show the statistics you keep talking about? I’m sure you’re a great person but I’d rather see some proof.
Do you write for a liberal newspaper? Your posts are so loaded! You do realize that people can be happy, successful and responsible without going to college, right? People can want success in all areas of their life and realize that 4+ years of college may be nothing but a waste of time in getting them closer to their goal.
Damn, that's up there with curing a Dyke!
“Those who don’t finish college typically don’t finish their marriages either.”
Source, please.
Yes Yes I know all about your anti education tirades. So you don’t believe in education. I find that astounding but you have drank the Koolaid. I just pray to God that you don’t have children. It is so sad when children are not given a proper direction. My Mother and Father both had parents who did not think a college education was important. My Mother’s parents had eight children and only My Mother graduated High School and she eventually received an Associates Degree. The other seven children made nothing of themselves. My father’s parents had three children. My father and Uncle joined the Air Force and luckily the military cared about education and they used their GI Bill. Hopefully your kids will find someone who prioritizes education since you don’t. God Bless you children!!!!!
I did notice that when a lesbian wanted to slum with a man, I often seemed to be the go to guy, I hope that I helped some transition back, I also seemed to be the "last fling guy" for many females, but I have cured a few feminists, and even turned a reproductive/abortion clinic head into a pro-gun, pro-life, Republican activist over a few years period.
Anti-education tirade? I have five children with a sixth on the way. I value education very much. So much, actually, that we homeschool our children. We use an online program, www.classicalliberalarts.com ,in case you are truly interested. If my kids want to go to college, they can go to college. If my kids want to start their own business and can succeed without going to college then so be it! I am not stuck on this myth of yours that you a person is nothing without an education. If my girls just want to be wives and mothers and find a suitable husband then why should they go to college? To get a job so they can work to buy material things and send their kids to daycare for someone else to raise? I am open to whatever my kids are interested in. But a college education is not the only determining factor to having a happy life.
Are your parents, aunts and uncles unhappy? By whose standards did they not “make something of themselves”? Was their house not big enough? Their car not new enough? What? How are you making this determination?
You shock me with this post (if you are telling the truth). I am a big advocate of homeschooling. I have four children and happily married. We stress education in our house. I get to make the determination on success as that is what being an American is all about....so sad that you don’t agree with that. Look I am sure that there are many people out there who are successful with out a college degree but many more without. Try getting a decent job TODAY without a college degree. Many companies use computers to sift through the job applications and if you don’t have a college degree of any type you don’t even get a consideration. Sure you can work at Walmart or the local auto shop but if you want to be a doctor, lawyer, accountant, engineer, nurse, teacher or any profession in that arena you HAVE TO GO TO COLLEGE. I am sorry if that burns you but that is the way it is. Perhaps moving to another country (not Europe or Canada) might ensure success without a college degree but even that is not a guarantee. Of course many folks like Kate plus Eight get their own TV show and clearly she does not have an education. A reality show might work for you.
She becomes a registered nurse when completing a diploma program at The Reading Hospital but Medical Center on Reading, Pennsylvania. She then worked as a labor and delivery nurse at Reading Hospital before 2004.[4]
Actually Kate finished some sort of diploma program....not sure what that means. I guess that is up to interpretation...... Maybe some on the job training with a certificate at the end since it was with the hospital. Some sort of candy striper but she received a modest check.
What a demented rant!
Samiam1972 is probably among the most dedicated mothers on FR.
As far as your desire that she not have children, she is basically pregnant half the time and homeschools all of them. Also, FR is a PRO-LIFE FORUM, why are you hoping that someone not have children?
If you think college is the most important thing for a person, that's great. For a lot of people it is, for a lot it isn't. I know plenty of people who are very successful by any standard and not all of them went to college. I can also tell you that the successful people I know who didn't go to college are often happier than those who did.
It is the left that has been pushing the idea that college is imperative and somehow a right. Our nation was built and prospered for nearly two centuries during a time when very few people went to college. I can assure you that nothing I learned in college is necessary for my job and I make plenty of money; in fact, other than with certain scientific careers, very few people make use of what they learned in college in their jobs.
You’re accusing menace lying? Good grief! And you get to decide whether or not people are successful according to your own standards? Is that what you are saying? So what do you consider successful? A family where both parents have to work out of the home in order to pay for cable TV, a brand new car every two years, a huge house, long vacations every year because they hate their job and need a vacation? They all have nice clothes and on the outside it looks like they are successful. Bit do they know each other? Do they know their kids?
Compare that to the family that has a mom that stays at home, a dad that has his own bike shop on his own property. He has built up a small but steady stream of clients because he is good at what he does and enjoys what he is doing. He’s home to eat with the family and help out when needed. They are comfortable and happy without all the junk that a lot of people think they have to have in order to be happy. Who is better off? The family that is on debt up to their eyeballs but has great toys or the family that has no debt but may not appear successful? These are just two general examples, by the way. I’m not saying there aren’t other options.
This started with you generalizing that unless you’re older than 24 before getting married and have a degree you can’t be successful. All I’ve been trying to do is point out to you that it isn’t wise to paint with such a broad brush. It doesn’t burn me that people have to get a degree to be an engineer or a doctor. I think you are seriously misreading my posts. And we’re quite happy, thank you. I don’t need a reality show. I don’t need TV, either.
Menace= me of
Sorry. My phone tries to fill in where my thumbs fumble. I’ll try to proofread a little better next time.
You look very successful to me. More successful than most people. Certainly more successful than the malcontent who keeps trying to tear you down.
What is wrong with you?
Thank you! I appreciate it!
You can’t reason with people who curse your entire lineage because you believe a person can be well-educated and have a fulfilling life without attending college at 18, or without attending college at all, if he chooses.
My husband hadn’t started college at all when we got married, when he was 26; I was about to graduate. He got his bachelor’s in Electrical Engineering when he was 32 (we had two children) and his Master’s at 34 (third baby on the way). I think having a family to support helps to focus a student’s mind on doing well and being efficient in gaining a professional education or career credentials.
Anoreth started community college at 17, and after a year decided it wasn’t all the meaningful at the moment. Now she’s had two years in the School of Hard Knocks (USCG branch), majoring in pirate-hunting in the tropics. She’s accumulating money for college, reading the Greek and Latin classics and the Scandinavian sagas, converting half the Coast Guard to radical conservatism ... what a life, and she’s just turned 20!
My first child turned 18 a few months before my 9th was born. She’d already signed her papers with the Coast Guard, but if she hadn’t, she’d probably have run screaming to the recruiter when the Walmart cashier assumed her brother was her son! (Out of 9, they’re the only two with red hair and gray eyes ;-).
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