Posted on 05/14/2011 7:03:25 AM PDT by flowerplough
Yup, about 2000 years into ‘em...
I appreciate your general tone, you speak from the heart it seems. I will do the same.
To say a little about myself, I have never bought into the idea that eschatology is too mysterious to understand, neither because there are conflicting views, we should adopt a cop out position: “pantrib, and panmill,” I determined some 40 years ago to get to the bottom of this. I studied the various views, I studied the early Church Fathers, and most of all the Bible. For a lot of reasons I’m not going to get into here, I became fully convinced that the Historic Premill view (post-trib, non-dispensational) was the Apostolic view of the early church, thus the true one.
When one approaches the Bible without a theory to tell him how to interpret this passage and that one, that is what he comes up with. Pretribs read their theory into the Bible, so do Amillennialists. They both make it more complicated than it actually is. Neither realize that is what they are doing, however.
You mentioned the recapitulations in Revelation. Try viewing Revelation as events flowing towards one grand event, the second coming and the resurrection. Yes, there are recapitulations, as a post-trib I see the trumpets and bowls as stepping backs in time, for instance. But there is, however, one endpoint for the seals, trumpets, and bowls, the second coming and resurrection (Rev. 19 & 20). The whole of chapters 1-20 flow to that grand consummation event.
For a lot of reasons, it is simply impossible to make that grand consummation, to which the whole of chapters one through twenty flow to, itself to be a recapitulation. It is after all what the book is all about, the Revelation of Jesus Christ. He remains unrevealed in heaven seated at the right hand until his Revelation in chapter 19. Only then is he openly revealed. You simply don’t want to mess with that grand event, making a recapitulation out of it.
Granted, there are many details in the prior chapters that are recap in nature, but not so here! Only then does the resurrection take place, another thing you assuredly don’t want to mess with, theorize it, spiritualize it, or make a recapitulation out of it.
The martyrs of the tribulation are raised here, the tribulation having taken place just prior to this, along with the righteous dead of all ages, then, as Rev. 20 plainly says a thousand years later “the rest of the dead” are raised. If the resurrection at the end of the thousand years is a physical, bodily, one, then so is the one that begins the thousand years.
The Creation took six days to accomplish...On the seventh day, God rested...
History show us that the Creation took place approx. 6000 years ago...Or six days ago in God's time...
The scriptures speak clearly and repeatedly concerning a coming reign of Christ upon this earth. In Revelation 20 we see mention of one thousand years. The Holy Spirit gives us six references to this thousand year period. God wants to make sure that we don't miss it.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Eze 36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
Eze 36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
Eze 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
These verses ALL speak of a literal, physical reign on a physical, literal Earth by a literal, physical Lord...
But for time and space, I could go on listing these verses all day long; there are that many of them...
We are fast approaching the 7th Day, the Day of rest...The 7000th year of God's creation...Where God will rest for a Day...A thousand year Day...
Thanks for sharing your view. There are a couple of wise statements that I try to keep in mind regarding the details of biblical prophecy:
1. “Let each be persuaded in his own mind.”
2. Speak loudly where the Bible speaks loudly, and softly where the Bible speaks softly.
The details regarding the chronology of biblical prophecy definitely belong to those subjects were one needs to “tread lightly,” respecting those Christians who may differ.
Above all, we look forward to the glorious return of the Lord Jesus.
All the best.
I appreciate you sharing your point of view. I try to keep a couple of wise statements in mind as I contemplate the subject of eschatology: “Let each be persuaded in his own mind,” and: speak loudly where the Bible speaks loudly, and softly where the Bible speaks softly. If Harold Camping & his followers had not so dogmatically pushed their peculiar interpretations, they would not be in the pickle they find themselves in today (May 21).
We look forward to the glorious return of the Lord Jesus.
All the best.
I think you would have more in common with Harold Camping than me, as both of you hold to premature theory. Camping has a premature second coming (the pretrib imminent rapture), allowing for his date setting, you, on the other hand, have a premature first resurrection, premature incarceration of the devil, and a premature millennial (which Amills say we are now in).
Of the two, yours is worst, in my opinion. A pretribber can realize his error once he finds himself in the great tribulation. Not so with you, you have no future event to cause you to realize your error. When Christ comes and ushers in the millennial, it’ll be too late to reverse yourself. You’ll face Christ in your unbelief.
Pretribs can dig themselves out of the hole they’ve dug for themselves before it is too late - in Camping’s case there is a humiliating price tag that he has to pay - while Amill is a trap very few ever get out of. Sadly, most dig the hole they are in even deeper by gravitating to even deeper errors such as Preterism and Postmillennialism.
Not so with you, you have no future event to cause you to realize your error. Like I'm going to be DEVASTATED to discover that I don't have to go through the Tribulation after all! I suspect that pretribs are the ones who are likely to be in total shock upon learning of their mistaken belief about being secretly whisked away in the clouds before all the bad stuff starts.
Sort of like the poor fellow in Times Square forlornly awaiting the end of the world, and having to face up to the fact that he has to keep on living in this old world. Similarly, I imagine a lot of pre-tribs are going to be wandering around wondering why they weren't spirited away. The same people could find themselves hopelessly confused, unable to face up to fact that Antichrist is in their midst. They may, in fact, be totally blind to his machinations, as the Antichrist is not supposed to show up until they are "gone," remember?
You’ll face Christ in your unbelief. So all those who disagree with your view are guilty of "unbelief" and subject to fearsome judgment?
The first thing each of us needs to realize is that people of genuine Christian faith hold differing positions regarding the subject of eschatology, and that everyone who disagrees with us is not guilty of "unbelief," as though your particular viewpoint is to be equated with Dogmatic Truth.
I do not expect to be judged for my "unbelief" for not accepting the novel prophetical teachings of a 19th century Scottish preacher. I prefer to stand within the broad tradition of the Christian Church on such matters.
Still, as I stated, I do not give unqualified allegiance to any school of thought regarding eschatology. Each has their strengths and weaknesses (most have far more weaknesses than strengths IMHO). FYI I would be DELIGHTED to discover that pretribs are right, and that I do not have to go through a time of tribulation.
Unfortunately I am not convinced that the Bible teaches a secret rapture prior to the time of tribulation, and suspect that the admonition "In this world ye shall have tribulation" may not be limited to the everyday trials of life, but may well refer to a "time of trouble" that shall descend upon the whole world.
I do not expect to be judged for my “unbelief” for not accepting the novel prophetical teachings of a 19th century Scottish preacher. I prefer to stand within the broad tradition of the Christian Church on such matters.
I’m not sure I follow you here. It appears you have me with the dispensationalists. I agree with what you say here about the “novel” teachings that began in the 19th century. I mentioned in one post to you quite a ways back that I am Historic Premillennialist (HP)...post-trib and non-dispensationalist. The ancient historic premillennial view held by the Church Fathers.
Most who have really studied their Bibles run from Dispensationalism right into the arms of Amillennialism. Not realizing that there is a premill view minus all the “novel” teachings you mentioned. The Amills, of course, never mention it, it is to their advantage to present their view as the only alternative to obviously wrong Dispensationalism with its pretrib rapture, etc.
In running from Dispensationalism with its premature second coming, etc., perhaps were you aware of HP you wouldn’t have been so quick to buy into Amill...with its premature resurrection, incarceration of the devil, and millennial. That’s what I meant by “premature,” by the way.
You might be surprised to know that HP does not hold to the things that caused you to run from Dispensationalism, neither is it’s millennial the Dispensationalist variety.
ok, so the multitudes of folks who disagree with this need "a little bible study"?
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