Posted on 04/01/2011 3:50:19 PM PDT by NYer
Cardinal Angelo Amato, prefect of the Congregation for Saints' Causes, speaks at a conference about Pope John Paul II in Rome April 1. (CNS/Paul Haring) |
Ping!
Beatified? Chapter and verse?
Bless you, I haven’t laughed like this for weeks! lolol
Sola scriptura? Chapter and verse?
Yes indeed, by Scripture alone! The answers are in The Book and not a man. Catholicism is to Christianity is what cataracts are to the eye.
Right on! You don’t need no steenkin’ screepture!
It’s a weird world out there. I often wish I didn’t know most of it existed, like my mother’s cousins who had never even been to Belfast.
I have found 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17 work for me... "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect (COMPLETE), thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
The word of God is what is needed for 1) Doctrine - that which is taught/instructed; 2) Reproof - to prove or test things; 3) Correction - To bring back to an upright state; 3) Instructions in Righteousness - Being taught what is right...
And it's God's Word that makes you complete and thoroughly furnishes (literally perfectly finishes) you for ALL good works.
I have found 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17 work for me... "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect (COMPLETE), thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
What does that say about sola scriptura? Saying that "all scripture" is inspired and authoritative doesn't mean that "only scripture" is. And St. Paul himself contradicts your interpretation when he instructs believers to "hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." Interestingly, Catholics have never doubted the authority of "all scriptures" as St. Paul insists in your quoted verse. Rather, it is the Protestants who have rejected the inspiration of some of the scriptures.
This is the biggest problem with sola scriptura in my opinion. Without an inspired table of contents you will always fall back to something extra-scriptural. No matter what you say or do, you have to depend on some form of tradition not contained in the scriptures in order to achieve the most simple task of knowing what is scripture in the first place.
The New Testament has a beginning, middle and end.
Praise be to God his Church. Help us all. In His Holy Name Jesus!!
"This is the biggest problem with sola scriptura in my opinion. Without an inspired table of contents you will always fall back to something extra-scriptural. No matter what you say or do, you have to depend on some form of tradition not contained in the scriptures in order to achieve the most simple task of knowing what is scripture in the first place. "
The Extra- Scriptural is the books and people who told them what that scripture means per verse instead of claiming that they got the view from the bible only. First they read books that told them what this verse means then read that verse. Not read the scripture only like claimed. Otherwise where do you get the anti-catholic view. You are told this from books or people not scripture. I know the whole process I was once anti- catholic for a couple of years. I prayed to the Lord he showed me that it was outside scripture we get this view. It took little while from pure reading and balancing the verses from the beginning of the book to the end.
Praise Jesus and His Church. What Divine Mercy he has for all Christians even when we do not fully understand everything!! AMEN!!
But Saint Paul also says: "See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." which is much more applicable here and completely consistent with Jesus' condemnation of the Jewish scribes and pharisee's acts of putting their human traditions on par with scripture. ("You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!" Mk 7:9) In fact, Jesus makes this same point at least 4 times in chapter 7 of Mark alone! Jesus, however, never criticizes scripture. Jesus continual referances to scripture as authority for his words and deeds and his simultaneous rejections of traditions makes sola scripture decidedly Biblical.
But Saint Paul also says: "See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." which is much more applicable here and completely consistent with Jesus' condemnation of the Jewish scribes and pharisee's acts of putting their human traditions on par with scripture. ("You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!" Mk 7:9) In fact, Jesus makes this same point at least 4 times in chapter 7 of Mark alone! Jesus, however, never criticizes scripture. Jesus continual referances to scripture as authority for his words and deeds and his simultaneous rejections of traditions makes sola scripture decidedly Biblical.
But, that doesn't uphold sola scriptura. Our Lord promised the Spirit, and that it would teach all truth. He certainly never suggested that the Church, guarantor of the Spirit, would act against that Spirit. He promised to remain with the Church, to give His Spirit to the Church, and that the Church would withstand to the end. None of this fits with your suggestion that our Lord would equate His own promised Church which He would found with the pharisees. Further, your interpretation of St. Paul fails for the same reasons, and because the meaning you see there is a result of eisegesis, and not exegesis.
What you are overlooking is that St. Paul spoke directly, without need of interpretation, to the teaching authority which lies outside of the written scriptures. Further, you cannot even hold to sola scriptura without, both simultaneously and contradictorily, holding to tradition regarding, at minimum, the canon of scripture itself. People love to talk around this, but the impossibility is definitive. Sola scriptura is a fallacy; a myth that cannot even be presented without the use of extra-scriptural teaching. There is no inspired table of contents.
Sorry for the haters on this thread... I have great respect for John Paul II.. as my Grandfather did as well (he passed away in 1996)... JPII was a holy man of God and inspired youth around the world to embrace their faith in God.
Which it teaches by enabling us to (1) originally recognize which writings were cannonical scripture and (2) giving us the ability to understand scripture. The Church is nothing more the the "called out" - the collection of all regenerated Christians, ie. those fileed with and directed by the Spirit. Now, just as the Pharisees perverted the concept of Israel with their man made traditions (as condemned by Jesus) so have false Christians created a false and perverted "Church' with their traditions. For pretty much the same reasons. This is the reason for Sola Scirpture and why Christ relied on scripture. He recognized that slavish obedience to non-scriptural traditions would always lead man away from God. ("You praiase me with your lips but your heart is far from me, you have traded the commands of God for the precepts of man"). Paul spoke from direct relevation of Christ - just as the prophets spoke, and even he used scripture as authority for many of his arguments but never tradition. Nor is it tradition, but the Spirit, which defines the cannon. It was this cannon which shaped the corporate nature of the Church not the other way around. To reject Sola Scriputra is to fall into idolatry every time. Every body that has placed tradition on the same level as scripture has fallen into apostasy just as the scribes and pharisees did. It is inevitable. Tradition is just the reign of the flesh.
Wrong. Read Matthew 5:17 and following. "Ye have heard it...but, I say unto you..."
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.