Posted on 03/22/2011 6:36:53 AM PDT by topcat54
By the way, did you see Pope John Paul II in his final years? He was bent and physically impaired through his incredible labors on behalf of the Church. He has been called "the son of labor" by some. His experience isn't out of the ordinary... most popes give to the point of physical failure... or die sooner. There is great suffering in that great responsibility.
Or, as the Catholic Church has taught and believed from the beginning, the Marriage Feast of the Lamb occurred in time with Christ on the Cross. He is at once Priest, sacrificial offering and Bridegroom. We are joined with His once-for all sacrifice when we participate in His offering of the Last Supper--the Holy Mass. It is a timeless joining in this one-time Earthly event played out in all its Glory in Heaven as John saw the Lamb appearing as though slain. In this sharing, Heaven and Earth are joined and the Whole Church (Saints and Angels included) rejoice and sing the Holy, Holy, Holy together. As we believe in the Communion of Saints, we should recognize that this communion is not some future event but present in the here and now.
God bless you.
True but God took Enoch.
There seems to be so many different variations of the bible. Which one do you prefer?
Whatta you mean, so??? You're the one who said the church will suffer in the Tribulation:
The Church will suffer for the glory of God as Christ did.
While some Christians have and do suffer for the testimony of Jesus Christ, most don't...
The church will not go thru the Tribulation...We will not experience the wrath to come...
No, I didn't. There is no reason to expect that we will be free from suffering. Suffering has been a part of the Church since Christ hung on the Cross.
While some Christians have and do suffer for the testimony of Jesus Christ, most don't...
The Faith is so badly misunderstood outside of the Church...
Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
The church will not go thru the Tribulation...We will not experience the wrath to come...
I simply think you are wrong. Sorry. This is a new interpretation from the recent couple of centuries but the history of the Church goes back to the Christians in the Colosseum and Christ on the Cross. They did not see their suffering as something of a curse. They saw their suffering as offering oblation for the Glory of God. So will it be in the Tribulation. What you have rejected is the key you need to understand the Revelation--the Holy Mass offered by the Church.
Oh c'mon now...You're not talking to another Catholic...
I simply think you are wrong. Sorry. This is a new interpretation from the recent couple of centuries but the history of the Church goes back to the Christians in the Colosseum and Christ on the Cross. They did not see their suffering as something of a curse. They saw their suffering as offering oblation for the Glory of God. So will it be in the Tribulation.
I think you need to spend more time in the word of God...When babies are cut out from mothers stomachs while being held by non Christians, parents watching the arms and legs being ripped from their children's bodies, while mothers and fathers watch their kids starve to death, while parents out of unfathomable hunger resort to eating the flesh of their children, you tell us that people will glory in this suffering as an offering to God...
It's clear to me you don't have a clue what Revelation is all about...
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
'If so be that' is the same as saying 'since we do' (suffer) with him...The suffering is referenced as persecution whether it be painful, or spiritual which we all go thru...
It does not mean that someone will cause every Christian pain for being a Christian...And it does not mean we 'must' suffer pain...We are not under any law, but grace...
I know. That's why I noted your rejection of the Holy Mass.
It's clear to me you don't have a clue what Revelation is all about...
It's clear to me that you have delusions of grandeur. I'm simply having a conversation with you about things in which we disagree (things about which many millions of Christians disagree). Why are you casting aspersions? To take your recently minted interpretations against the millenia of learning in the Church by such men as St Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, St Athanasius, and St John Chrysostom would be to make myself a super-pope, as you have done. I don't sit in judgment of the Church, I LEARN from Her. Your views of the Revelation were not shared by the Early Church nor have they been embraced by the modern Church.
It does not mean that someone will cause every Christian pain for being a Christian...And it does not mean we 'must' suffer pain...We are not under any law, but grace...
I don't make the supposition that one MUST suffer... that is way above my pay grade. I do make the observation, though, that the Apostles saw our sufferings as beneficial to the Church and certainly the Church has prospered through the sufferings of Her children--that is historical fact. The confident sacrifices of the Christian persecutions have been credited many times with the conversion of their persecutors. I offer you the following for more perspective on suffering for the Faith:
Phil 1:27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; 28 in no way alarmed by your opponents--which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God. 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
2 Thess 1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline. 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.
2 Tim 2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3 Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. 14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; 16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? 19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world. 10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
Rev 2:10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
I think you need to spend more time in the word of God.
I think we all need to. Peace.
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