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To: Quix
Someone argues, “But I have never seen the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit in my church!” True. But the fault lies with the church, not with God. The contemporary church is a victim of its own unbelief. It has created its blighted condition.

The gifts of the Spirit were imparted first to the Apostles, without regard to their belief in those gifts, or their worthiness to receive. All were to receive the gifts of the Spirit.

So how could a lack of those gifts in the Church today be a sign that the church doesn't believe in them, or isn't worthy of them? Wouldn't that itself be a "change" in the gifts, which the author argues could not be changed?

I'm an agnostic about the gifts. At most, I am willing to accept that where they are necessary, God is still capable through the Spirit to manifest those gifts. I do not believe they are normal, or expected, amongst the church believers. My argument isn't ecclesiastic though, but more logic -- I believe there are way too many certain Christians who are certainly doing God's work who have no manifestation of these gifts to believe that the gifts are expected to be manifest in all. As I said, not very spiritual; I call it the Billy Graham rule.

But also, how to explain how the gifts would fall away if they were not intended to? The early church clearly believed in the gifts, and used them, and welcomed them, and probably even expected them. What would cause them to turn to disbelief in the gifts, assuming the author is correct and you can lose the gift through lack of belief that they can happen?

We have disbelief now because we don't see the gifts. How would we develop disbelief in an era where the gifts were the norm?

I'll admit I pretty much settled my pursuit of this issue back in my college days. I did spend a good deal of time on it, with questionares, studies, and visits with pentecostal churches and pastors. I was unconvinced then.

19 posted on 03/21/2011 7:41:57 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

Maybe I’ll feel like bothering with those points tomorrow. I don’t at present.

God seems to have some degree of criteria in such matters . . . that He also violates on occasion . . . that folks must needs seek His Face, His Spirit, His empowerment . . . in addition to following Him as obediently as they can manage . . . if they are going to have much of His Spirit flow through them in miraculous ways.

Most folks and even most congregations—even Pentecostal types . . . . just aren’t willing to pay the price in prayer, fasting and obedience.


26 posted on 03/21/2011 9:27:44 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

It’s not that the gifts fell away, it’s that Christians prefer not to recognize them as gifts for whatever reason. They are there.

I aver that church leaders from early times quashed the recognition of gifts, because they were problematic in operation (1 Cor 12-14, e.g.). The development of clergy didn’t help, either, leaving common people untrained to exercise their senses to discern good and evil.

The fact that my eyes are closed doesn’t mean that something is not going on in the light.

And I was raised in a rabidly cessationist group who steadfastly refused to discuss the Holy Spirit because He is so ‘divisive’. I learned better.


197 posted on 05/05/2011 10:19:25 PM PDT by Chaguito
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