What is Wrong with Lordship Salvation?

How much understanding of the Person and work of Christ do I need to have in order to change my mind? Do I have to understand he paid for my sins? Wouldn’t that mean I would have to understand I’m a sinner? Do I have to believe that Jesus is Lord? (That is the Person of Christ I know.) Where exactly do you draw the line?

What does Jesus say about it? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". That's all. Salvation is based on faith alone, that Jesus Christ paid a person's sin debt in full and that payment is all that is required for salvation. Nowhere does Jesus say anything that a person needs anything more than simple faith.

If in-depth knowledge about Jesus and Scripture and theology are requirements for salvation, then the vast majority of the world will never have the opportunity for salvation. And that contradicts the Bible.

And where do you draw the line with the amount of knowledge one has to have in order to be saved? Where is that line drawn?

Also, is it just a change of mind that is needed? Isn’t it possible for someone to decide “those Christians were right about Jesus, but I don’t care. I just want to party now”? That person changed his mind; is he saved? Isn’t a change of heart needed as well?

Sometimes it can be difficult to just accept the simplicity of the free gift of salvation that Christ offers. We like to think that there must be something more to salvation than what Christ said.

But God simply said, "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.". God never said that salvation requires anything other than the simple faith that Jesus Christ died in our place and paid our sin debt. Changes in the heart and spiritual maturity come after the individual has the little bit of faith it takes to believe that Jesus' death on the cross is sufficient for payment of sin.

The call is to complete commitment and yielding. The reality is always less than that until eternity. That doesn’t change the call.

The natural, unregenerate man is incapable of being committed and yielded to Christ. That commitment and yielding is known as "sanctification" and is the work of the Holy Spirit throughout a person's life after he has been saved. There is not one passage in the Bible that supports the belief that a person has to be "committed" and "yielded" before he can be saved. It is impossible for someone who does not know Christ as Savior and who has not settled his sin debt to be "committed" and "yielded" to God. It simply does not happen.

We do believe it is dangerous to offer unreserved assurance based upon a past prayer or profession of faith to someone who is living in a carnal manner.

God, thankfully, does give that assurance.

Paul exhaustively argued in Romans 7 in favor of eternal security, explaining the dual nature of man, how often we fall short, how we do what we hate while knowing it is wrong, all the time hating ourselves for sinning.

Paul says, "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. . . . For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Having explained the exact nature of the conflict with the old man experienced by every Christian, Paul cries out in despair, "O wretched man that I am, Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" before answering his own question and confirming that sin is a continuing part of a saved Christian's earthly existence:

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

In context, Romans 7 teaches that the struggle with sin is evidence one IS walking after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 is the promise that there is no condemnation for such a one who struggles with sin.

I am certain of my eternal destiny irrespective of my current state of sinlessness or vice-versa. Jesus didn't save me on one day, for one day -- and then leave the rest up to me. That flies in the face of both logic and experience, even before one turns to Scripture for confirmation.

Church discipline may have a place with carnality, but one also has to be careful to remain true to Scripture when dealing with issues like someone living a carnal life.

Whoa... FRiend, I think you misread my post! Or where you responding to someone else? I agree with everything you wrote in Post #19, so I’m wondering if your comment was meant for someone else.

I *strongly* believe that to be saved totally, completely, radically changes your way of living. To say that someone can have Jesus and continue to live in sin is to live in deception. One cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit, and no way can someone have the Holy Spirit and continue in a life of unrepentant rebellion.

I hold to the “Lordship” side of the debate, but that Lordship comes through the Holy Spirit, not a man-centered commitment of self-will.

As to my theology, I am a Calvinist charismatic with a Southern Baptist background. My two favorite Bible teachers are John Piper and Malcolm Smith. If those names sound familiar and you know what those two men teach, you know where I’m coming from. I also love Andrew Murray and Charles Spurgeon.

The point I was trying to make — and perhaps failing, I am so tired — is that to be saved is to be radically transformed. If someone truly meets Christ they cannot stay the same, and Jesus will be Lord of their life. Sins will start falling away. To see Him for Who He is is to see Him as Lord. It’s not to “make” Him Lord, because that’s Who He is.

Salvation is Jesus Christ living His life in and through us. It is a union. It is not a legalistic “Well, I guess I need to make this commitment.” It is to be united with the living Christ in the person of the Holy Spirit.

I have met many people who claim to know Christ, but there is no fruit, no evidence that they have ever met Him. Billy Graham has suggested that half of all people in churches may be unregenerate. I would guess the number is higher than that.

Perhaps I haven’t expressed myself well. I am very tired and right now all I want to do is get ready for bed. I will try to read over the thread tomorrow with a clearer head.

Goodnight, all.

The issue of Lordship goes to the very root of biblical Christianity. I firmly believe that Dispensational Antinomianism is spiritually bankrupt. The Lordship issue is vitally related to the very foundation of biblical, historical Christianity.
We might ask, "Just what effect will the true biblical Lordship position have on real Christians?" Here are some:

It will provide and provoke that which will keep us coming to Christ for fresh forgiveness and fresh assurance.
It will kill spiritual pride -- there will be no more so-called "spiritual Christians" as a super-class.
It will exalt Christ to His Throne Rights.
It will prove helpful and hopeful, to saint and sinner alike, to know a Christ who is Lord of all, and to know that as Lord He has power to save and power to sanctify.
It will have a profound effect upon our evangelism. No more of this wicked huckstering off this poor, impotent, pathetic Jesus. No more getting votes for Jesus. It will box sinners up to the power of Christ and the mercy of the One who is able and willing to save all who will come to God by Him.

Behind the Lordship controversy is a warped, twisted, unbiblical theology of Dispensationalism.
Behind the Lordship Controversy by Ernest Reisinger

Very well said. The belief that fallen, desperately evil man can approach God and "prepare" himself to "get saved" is totally un-Scriptural and cannot be validated anywhere in the Bible.

We come to God only on our knees, completely separated from Him with no hope of understanding Him, no hope of being reconciled to Him, and on our way to eternal damnation, and it is He not us, who saves us, who washes us clean, and makes us acceptable to Him. We do nothing whatsoever to work for, prepare, or earn our salvation. And, after we are saved, it is the Holy Spirit who grows us spiritually and sanctifies us. And, depending on the person, that work could take years.

Lordship salvation requires some work on our part, which, of course, is the complete opposite of what God told us salvation is all about. It is unBiblical, robs people of the eternal security that Jesus says that truly saved people have, and gives those who feel that they've met the "requirements" a false sense that they've "done their part" and, unlike those who have obeyed Christ and accepted Him on faith alone, are really the ones who are "saved".

This is a reply to the bottom section of your post: Is Lordship Salvation Biblical?
Again, it can't be denied that faith in Christ produces a change (2 Corinthians 5:17).

The Lordship position was a response to those who said that sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t.

A person who has been delivered from sin by faith in Christ ~~should~~ will not desire to remain in a life of sin (Romans 6:2).

Fixed.

At the same time, submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is an issue of spiritual growth, not salvation.

Sanctification is an issue of spiritual growth, the result of trusting the LORD Jesus Christ.

The Christian life is a process of submitting to God in increasing measure (2 Peter 1:5-8).

A person simply has to recognize that he or she is a sinner...
The need to recognize one is a sinner is not unanimous on the no-lordship side

Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10).
This is one of the defining issues of the debate, and you just came down on my side of it.
Christians absolutely should submit to Him (James 4:7). A changed life and submission to Christ's lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.
I think you are misunderstanding what we mean by submission to Christ’s lordship. This is what Ryrie (no-lordship side) said in “So Great Salvation”: “Being convinced of something or putting one’s trust in the Gospel could hardly be said to be a casual acceptance of something. When a person gives credence to the historical facts that Christ died and rose from the dead and the doctrinal fact that this was for his sins, he is trusting his eternal destiny to the reliability of those truths.” “Trusting one’s eternal destiny” is commitment. Deciding the Gospel is for me is submission. I would only clarify that we don’t just trust the reliability of those truths, but the reliability of the object of those truths, Christ.

Lordship Salvation ... is man’s attempt to reach God...it is demonstrated false doctrine and even doctrines of demons.

It appears you are ignorant of the issues involved in the debate. (That’s understandable if you get your information on the Lordship position from the slanderous straw men posted by GiovannaNicoletta.)

Here is the summary:

“Lordship Salvation” Controversy

In the final quarter of the twentieth century, the last bastion of evangelical unity was put under siege. The problem became manifest in two distinct areas. The first was the outbreak within the ranks of dispensationalism of the “Lordship salvation” controversy. This controversy was carried on chiefly between John MacArthur on one side and Zane Hodges and Charles Ryrie on the other. The chief question in dispute was whether a person can be saved by embracing Jesus as Savior but not as Lord. At issue were the necessary conditions or requirements for justification. The debate did not center on merit and grace, but it did (and continues to) center on faith and works.
At the heart of the issue is this question: Does saving faith necessarily produce the works of obedience? MacArthur insists that true saving faith must necessarily and inevitably yield works of obedience. Ryrie and Hodges insist that though faith should immediately produce works of obedience, it does not always do so. The “carnal Christian” is one who receives Jesus as Savior but may die without ever embracing him as Lord.

R.C. Sproul, Faith Alone : The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification, electronic ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2000), 24-25.

RE: “The Lordship guys want some level of pre-commitment to make sure they are REALLY SERIOUS. Impossible for the unregenerate.”

1. There is no “pre-commitment.” True faith is a commitment of the heart to Jesus, it’s not a vote of “maybe” or “present.” It’s what happens when the the seed falls on the good soil. It starts growing immediately and it produces fruit.

2. Of course it’s impossible for the unregenerate. They are dead in sins. If your gospel is something that expects the unregenerate to respond apart from God working a miracle in their hearts, it’s no gospel at all.

3. The no-lordship position often gives assurance of salvation to those who act more like the seed that fell on the rocky soil or among the weeds. (No, I don’t think that’s talking about carnal Christians. I think it’s talking about those who went out from us because they weren’t of us.) They haven’t been to church in years, they live just like the world, but they “got saved” 15 years ago. “How do you know you got saved.” “I went forward one Sunday, prayed a prayer. Even got baptised, too.”

But do you love Jesus? That’s the real question. And if you love Jesus, why don’t you love His people? If you love Jesus, why don’t you obey him? Loving and obeying Jesus is the true source of assurance of salvation, not having prayed the “magic prayer,” as you called it.

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