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To: Diamond
"That must be why the Calvinists of the Mayflower Compact covenanted together the first written Constitution in America - "for the Glory of God and the advancement of the Christian religion."

You are wrong on a number of accounts. The Mayflower Compact was the first governing document of Plymouth Colony. Each preceding colony had a similar governing charter.

To draw any pride from the actual contents of the Mayflower Compact or to fabricate any parallels to the US Constitution is an exercise in lunacy. It set forth no rights for the colonists nor any limitations on the colonial government. In practice it codified a socialist experiment that resulted in the deaths of two thirds of the original colonists because like the flawed Calvinist doctrine works were not required. It was also the most oppressive and intolerant colony on the continent.

Lastly, the Compact gives specific reference to Virginia, the original location. Plymouth was chosen as a location because the terribly off course Mayflower had run out of beer and would go no further.

113 posted on 02/28/2011 8:43:32 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
You are wrong on a number of accounts. The Mayflower Compact was the first governing document of Plymouth Colony. Each preceding colony had a similar governing charter.

You are wrong. The Mayflower Compact was the Pilgrim's own form of government. A charter, in contradistinction, was a grant of authority (permission) from the king that they, the colonists, were allowed to start a colony.

To draw any pride from the actual contents of the Mayflower Compact or to fabricate any parallels to the US Constitution is an exercise in lunacy.

Then a lot of eminent historians must have been and must be lunatics in your book. As to which comparison is akin to lunacy, this one, or yours where you have Calvinists borrowing from Hinduism and actually practicing a form of the Brahiminst caste system, I will let the independent reader judge.

It set forth no rights for the colonists...

Rights do not come from what is set forth in constitutions - they come from God. Every Calvinist understands the difference and takes it for granted.

...nor any limitations on the colonial government...

The simple fact that it was signed by 41 of the male passengers proves beyond cavil that the authority to make laws in the colony was also based on the inhabitants consent to be subject to those laws, which is itself a limitation on government. The Plymouth Colony became the most democratic colony at that time, since every adult male head of household was a shareholder in the company and had the right to vote for governor of the colony. It was the first document in American history to form a government based of the concept that government should derive its power from the “consent of the governed.”

In practice it codified a socialist experiment that resulted in the deaths of two thirds of the original colonists...

There is nothing inherent in the Compact that codified socialism anymore than there is anything in our present Constitution that codifies socialism. However, unlike the present day, they abandoned their experiment in socialism after the first year because they got a clue from starving to death that socialism doesn't work.

...because like the flawed Calvinist doctrine works were not required. It was also the most oppressive and intolerant colony on the continent....

So they had such zeal as missionaries that they risked their lives to come here, and they were such zealots in their religious convictions to the point that they became "the most oppressive and intolerant colony on the continent", in your words, but they didn't believe in works? Your accusations on this count are incoherent and self-vitiating.

Daniel Webster speaking of the Mayflower Compact said,

Society, civil rule, the civil state, cannot exist, while every man is responsible to nobody and to nothing but to his own opinion. And our New England ancestors understood all this quite well. Gentlemen, there is the "Constitution" which was adopted on board the Mayflower in November, 1620, while that bark of immortal memory was riding at anchor in the harbor of Cape Cod. What is it? Its authors honored God; they professed to obey all His commandments, and to live ever and in all things in His obedience. But they say, nevertheless, that for the establishment of a civil polity, for the greater security and preservation of their civil rights and liberties, they agree that the laws and ordinances, and I am glad they put in the word "constitutions," invoking the name of the Deity on their resolution; they say, that these laws and ordinances, and constitutions, which may be established by those they should appoint to enact them, they, in all due submission and obedience, will support.

This constitution is not long. I will read it. It invokes a religious sanction and the authority of God on their civil obligations; for it was no doctrine of theirs that civil obedience was a mere matter of expediency. "In the name of God, Amen: We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, and Defender of the Faith, etc., having undertaken, for the glory of God and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the heathen parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God and of one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation, and furtherance of the ends aforesaid, and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.
Daniel Webster - The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States

Lastly, the Compact gives specific reference to Virginia, the original location. Plymouth was chosen as a location because the terribly off course Mayflower had run out of beer and would go no further.

Which is further proof of your error; because the new location for their colony was outside the areas claimed by the two chartered joint-stock companies, they considered themselves technically independent and created their own government under the Mayflower Compact.

“In Calvinism lies the origin and guarantee of our constitutional liberties.” Groen van Prinsterer

“The fanatic for Calvinism was a fanatic for liberty, for in the moral warfare for freedom, his creed was a part of his army, and his most faithful ally in the battle.” - George Bancroft

“[Calvinists] are the true heroes of England. They founded England, in spite of the corruption of the Stuarts, by the exercise of duty, by the practice of justice, by obstinate toil, by vindication of right, by resistance to oppression, by the conquest of liberty, by the repression of vice. They founded Scotland; they founded the United States; at this day they are, by their descendants, founding Australia and colonizing the world.” - Hippolyte Taine

“John Calvin was the virtual founder of America.” - Leopold von Ranke

“He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of Calvin knows but little of the origin of American liberty.” - George Bancroft

"The Revolution of 1776, so far as it was affected by religion, was a Presbyterian measure. It was the natural outgrowth of the principles which the Presbyterianism of the Old World planted in her sons, the English Puritans, the Scotch Covenanters, the French Huguenots, the Dutch Calvinists, and the Presbyterians of Ulster." So intense, universal, and aggressive were the Presbyterians in their zeal for liberty that the war was spoken of in England as "The Presbyterian Rebellion." An ardent colonial supporter of King George III wrote home: "I fix all the blame for these extraordinary proceedings upon the Presbyterians. They have been the chief and principal instruments in all these flaming measures. They always do and ever will act against government from that restless and turbulent anti-monarchial spirit which has always distinguished them everywhere."
George Bancroft - Presbyterians and the Revolution, p. 49.


118 posted on 02/28/2011 11:00:09 AM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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