!HALLELUJAH!
!HALLELUJAH!
Posted on 02/12/2011 6:20:06 PM PST by topcat54
MUCH AGREE.
THX THX.
And how long after Luther? Like so much else, it was a response to Luther. The alternative is a "weeeee" bit older than 1585, too. It's interesting to consider, at least, that Ribera was attacked as a defender of Rome and Catholics a three and four decades ago, not for the work now referenced. Of course, that long ago no one wanted to hear about some crap called "Islam", because everyone knew that the Soviet Union was the real threat since the Ottoman Empire had been torn apart after WWI.
I personally found it sort of interesting when people started to point to him as the beginning of current Rapture related preaching specifically because he defended the RCC and Rome proving from Scripture it couldn't be the antiChrist kingdom yet you see people both embrace his work an make the same claims it was written to disprove. If this is a foundational work, I sure couldn't find a copy in English back in the late nineties when when I was looking for one. Is there a copy available in English now? This link could have it online in English in the future:
http://www.francisco-ribera.com/index.html
The site also is a source for some good books. Islam as the kingdom of the AntiChrist, now that's long been accepted in some quarters, in fact ever since about a century after Ribera. Yes, it is older than Darby, and yes, the Catholic Church did assign a Priest to develop a futurist interpretation to counter preaching that the end was near back in the 1500-1600. It was easy for everyone to decide that the world was aligned perfectly for His return and people were desperate to avoid more suffering. The invasions and predations of Islam and the plague were recent memories at best and still going on in some places. The Plague and Islamic expansion that frequently butchered and enslaved Christians caused great demoralization and a great loss of faith in most of the Christian world as I'm sure you can understand.
I don't understand the reason this is a major issue to anyone, really, He is returning either way and He is our savior no matter what your end times view is. The argument seems like a distraction that energizes people without making them a bit more Christlike no matter which side of the argument they're on. JMHO.
Regards
Exactly. The Rapture and the parousia are one and the same.
“I don’t understand the reason this is a major issue to anyone, really, He is returning either way and He is our savior no matter what your end times view is. The argument seems like a distraction that energizes people without making them a bit more Christlike no matter which side of the argument they’re on. JMHO.”
Mind if I quote you the next time a Rapture thread is posted? Because that is well said. Us Christians will fight about the darndest things. I think Jesus who can see the overall picture , like we can’t, would agree.
If I stumbled onto anything that you think helps or fits, feel free.
Regards
Revelation was written in the mid 90sAD long after the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem. That fact alone debunks all of the preterist DeMar nonsense. I rebuke dominionism, replacemetarianism, and preterism in the name of Jesus.
The Bible clearly and undeniably states that there will be an event where Jesus removes His true church from earth. To deny that is to willfully and knowingly deny God's word. A Christian is not going to do that.
And if that part is being denied, then so are other parts. Like the salvation parts and how nobody can enter the kingdom of Heaven without knowing Christ as Savior.
You do realize that the sole basis of your argument is infallible church tradition, the same infallible church tradition of the Roman Catholic who argues his case for all sorts of extra-biblical doctrines in this fashion. Your magisterium is the same as Romanism. Then again, maybe you don't realize this.
If I wanted to argue tradition, I could find an authentic Roman Catholic around these parts for that purpose.
Actually, folks who have synched-up with Mormon thinking at moments of weakness have awakened in the presences of a statistical demon. Spooky experience!
Note to self: don't read O S Card when suffering the flu!
I do think the dating of a man’s life and whereabouts would fall under history rather then theology. You see, when Irenaeus explained that John wrote Revelation “near the end of Domitions reign” it was a historical fact rather then a statement of theology. Nice try though.
BTW: Domitions reign didn’t start till 81AD so that puts the writing of Revelation well after 70AD. The preterists can’t change history.
When God graciously poured His light into my soul, and opened my eyes to His greatness in this age, as well as the one to come, my wife immediately noticed the difference. My children, who came along thereafter, grew up in an atmosphere of hope, expectancy, and optimism rather than one of fatalism, gloom, and capitulation. They grew up "expecting great things from God," and more willing to "attempt great things for God." We are really looking forward to seeing grandkids lay hold of God's promises, dig in for the long haul, and aim for excellence in their diverse callings.
I pray the day may come when I can go out into my backyard, regard God's heavens, and pray for grandkids glorifying Him with their vocations on Mars.
Meanwhile, the idiots who deny their children hope in Christ for this life lose 90% of their kids -- yet somehow, are unable to make the connection. Go figure.
a) That statement is a matter of interpretation, not fact. But you don't seem to grasp that “inconvenient truth” since you are not thoroughly familiar with all the testimony.
b) I can see you singing with your like-minded RC friends ... : “Tradition!! ... tradition!!”
In scripture we are told to persevere until His return but Satan takes the promise and turns it into a negative. I have seen that happen so often. When a person first becomes a Christian Satan tries to convince him that it’s not true. If the person stays a believer Satan pushes them to the extreme and perverts the truth to make the person go over the edge.
Satan is indeed devious. Those who pervert the scriptures are not a threat to Satan so he usually leaves them alone. Those who truly follow Christ are the ones he works that hardest against. Either he tries to get them deny Christ or to go to extremes like not working for the future.
I’m so sorry you fell into that trap. Now you have seemed to go to the other extreme. I will pray that you are brought back to the center and see the truth.
A statement of Irenaeus own words is interpretation? The history of Domition’s reign is interpretation? Don’t insult the intelligence of the readers. I have given the fact that Irenaeus wrote that John wrote Revelation “toward the end of Domition’s reign” and history also proves that Domition didn’t begin his reign until 81AD and was assassinated on September 18, 96AD. So “toward the end of Domitions reign” would have been mid 90s AD. See how that works?
Denying the truth with no evidence is looking weaker and weaker. Either show proof that John wrote Revelation prior to 70AD contrary to history or the preterist case is a sham and heresy.
What does it matter anyway? Can’t change their minds. I would think even the Rapture doubters though can see clearly enough to know something has been set in motion on God’s clock and we are truly on an unstoppable path to the end-times. If they can’t see that then they are truly blind.
I used to be a Dispensationalist, then I got saved and the Holy Spirit opened the Scriptures to me. From all I can tell, particularly from the typical incoherent ramblings from characters like Quix is that to the Dispensationalist, the Bible is a closed book and you derive all of your prophetic "truth" from TBN and the New York Times.
You are right about it being a waste of time. We should be evangelizing the Futurists first, see that you get saved and on the road to sanctification, then worry about your fetish for the Antichrist - that is if the Paraclete doesn't see fit to clear up that error first.
The Bible clearly and undeniably states that there will be an event where Jesus removes His true church from earth. To deny that is to willfully and knowingly deny God's word. A Christian is not going to do that.
Who is arguing differently? No one here denies the 2nd Coming. It is your ilk that invents all kinds of fiction regarding multiple comings and calls it Truth.
True Christians can have differences about the timing of the Rapture,
Here you claim that all the believers and saints of old up are not True Christians because they don't believe in Darby's Folley which wasn't in existence until the mid 1800s.
The word "rapture" isn't even in the Bible yet you condemn both Calvin and Arminius, Augustine and Erasmus, Sproul and Charles Finney, Spurgeon, Hodge, Wesley brothers, Isaac Newton, Tyndale, Luther, Edwards, Whitefield, Barnes, J.I. Packer, B.B. Warfield - you condemn them all to Hell because they didn't wet their pants in anticipation of the Antichrist. You can't even name a single theologian before Darby that ever taught Dispensationalism so I guess millions of people who loved the LORD and put their trust in Him are burning in Hell because they didn't worship Hal Lindsey.
Anyone who denies the salvation of the great theologians of our time and that of centuries before us is someone I can't break bread with. You have absolutely no knowledge of what it is to be a child of Christ when you condemn everyone for not buying into your Neo-gnostic Narcissistic Eschatology.
I'm sorry and I am very disappointed in you. I thought we just a disagreement where we could compare our understanding of the Scriptures, not that you would try to revive the Inquisition and call me a child of Hell.
Any further proof necessary that Dispensationalists have no love for the Church of our LORD?
| IF ALL Y'ALL REPLACEMENTARIANS et al CAN'T LAUGH AT YOURSELVES I'M WILLING TO DO IT FOR YOU! |
Do you believe the following:
"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have not hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
Do you believe the Scripture above? Did John Darby write those Scriptures?
The word "rapture" isn't even in the Bible
The word "Rapture" is in the Latin Vulgate. The original Greek word that was used in this Scripture, "harpazo", means "caught up" and is most certainly in the Bible. Now I understand why you put the Bible on the same level as the Sunday comics. The word "Bible" isn't in the Bible. Do you even think about what you're going to say before you say it?
you condemn both Calvin and Arminius, Augustine and Erasmus, Sproul and Charles Finney, Spurgeon, Hodge, Wesley brothers, Isaac Newton, Tyndale, Luther, Edwards, Whitefield, Barnes, J.I. Packer, B.B. Warfield
I'm not impressed with dead Bible deniers. Save that garbage for someone who cares.
You can't even name a single theologian before Darby that ever taught Dispensationalism so I guess millions of people who loved the LORD and put their trust in Him are burning in Hell because they didn't worship Hal Lindsey.
There have been many posts on this forum that listed men of God who believed what He said about the Rapture and you know it. You and your ilk denied that truth like you deny the truth of the Scriptures. And as long as you're going to accuse others of "worshiping Hal Lindsey", why don't you go find a picture somewhere of Rousas John Rushdoony and sink to your knees in front of it.
...for not buying into your Neo-gnostic Narcissistic Eschatology.
Good Lord that's lame. An "Narcissistic eschatology" accusation coming from the person who actually believes that he is going to redeem the world and set up Christ's kingdom? Try to have an original thought if you can.
I'm sorry and I am very disappointed in you. I thought we just a disagreement where we could compare our understanding of the Scriptures, not that you would try to revive the Inquisition and call me a child of Hell.
Stop flattering yourself. I don't need your approval or your validation. Go run it by someone who has the same delusions you have of the day when you sit on Christ's throne and take in all the glory and worship and adulation that God says will go to Jesus Christ.
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