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To: CTrent1564
Hyms to the Mother of God seemed to have been incorporated into the Liturgy after the Council of Ephesus, at least in the Eastern Church.

I’m familiar with the origin and purpose of the term theotokos. Originally, it had nothing to do with the adoration/veneration/worship/ etc of Mary. It’s purpose was purely Trinitarian.

How long after the Council of Ephesus did this allegedly occur?

488 posted on 01/31/2011 1:48:12 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- an error of Biblical proportions.")
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To: topcat54

topcat54:

Again Mary is “venerated and honored” in both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church. I hope you now realize the difference and realize that Worship and Adoration are for God alone.

Again, all the terms in the Marian Hyms are found in the early Church. If you have problems with those hyms, that is typical of the Reformation crowd of the 16th century so I am not trying to get you to agree to them.

However, your questions are legitimate and are ones that I think deserve a serious answer. One of the earliest hyms to The Mother of God is the “Akathist to the Theotokos” which is found here in a version used for Eastern Catholic Liturgy

http://www.cin.org/akathis.html

Here is a version used for an Eastern Orthodox Liturgy and one that has some details on its purpose in Liturgy and its History.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/m_akathist_e.htm

Since the Council of Ephesus occured in 431AD, the Akathist to the Most Holy Theotokos seems to have been written in the 6th century and is associated with the Church of Constantinopile, we are talking about anywhere from 70 years to maybe 130 years given the fact that the composer of the Hym, St. Romanos passed to the Lord in the year 553 AD according to the cite that I linked prepared by Bishop Alexander of the Russian Orthodox Church.


489 posted on 01/31/2011 2:04:03 PM PST by CTrent1564
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To: topcat54

topcat54:

Some review of some of my Catholic Liturgical books and my LIturgy of the Hours book reminded me of what is the earliest Marian Hym used in the Liturgy as it is part of the Antiphons. It is called the “Sub tuum praesidium” Here is a group of traditional nuns that pray the Classic Roman Liturgy of the Hours, which incorporated the “Sub tuum praesidium”

http://www.passionistnuns.org/blog/?cat=22

Now as opposed to being part of the Byzatine Liturgical Tradition, this Hym to the Theotokos originated from the Church of Alexandria and thus is still a primary Liturgical Prayer in the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is the major Church that Egypt’s Christians belong to.

The “Sub Tum praesidium” has also been translated into the Byzatine Liturgy as well as the Roman Rite and the Ambrosian Rite, which is a sub-Roman rite.

Hope this helps.


490 posted on 01/31/2011 4:08:57 PM PST by CTrent1564
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