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To: daniel1212

This is part of an extensive debate, but a careful reading of Rm. 4 shows Paul was not simply referring to works of the law, as Abraham was not under the law, and was justifed before he was even circumcised, and “not by works of righteousness” (Titus 3:5; written to a Gentile) and “not by works” (Eph. 2:9) and “not according to our works” (2Tim. 1:9) has no qualification as to what kind of works, but disallows any system in which souls are justified and are given the gift of eternal life by morally worthiness.


Gal 2;16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Paul seemed to be talking legalism.

James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James just seemed to be saying any ones faith would show up some where in their works, just what Jesus was talking about in the case of the good Samaritan, the point being that any one who thinks James was wrong would have to think Jesus was also wrong.

If some one helps some one else just for the purpose of showing God that they are righteous is not what i would call faith it would be what paul would call works of righteousness.

But if some one who claims to have so much faith would pass you by if it was plainly evident that you needed help would you not think of their faith as being dead?

Faith is something that we get from God, Law is what we get from man, we can debate all day but i can not see how it would change that fact, how faith was brought about by law is another matter.

I think there are other things we need to consider before we get the idea that Paul and James had a disagreement

1 Is that Paul was writing to the Gentiles, James was writing to the 12 tribes, the Jews, the way they understood things were not quite the same,

For instance the gentiles may have thought that since they were Jews by adoption that they were supposed to put legalism on every thing.

And maybe the Jews were just the opposite thinking that since they were now Christians they did not have to do anything.

The other thing is that in Pauls case the letters were to the church,s Paul was setting up the church of God in the gentile countries, much of what he wrote was not in telling every one how to run their personal lives but how to manage the church as St Peter and the other apostles set the church up and also picking the right people for the membership of the church and putting the right members in the positions where they would do the most good.

For instance appointing elders with only one wife to be bishops or deacons.

Personally, i believe Jesus said every thing we need to know for our salvation, but he also chose the apostles to preach the gospel, so for that reason we have the letters and with out them who would know about the Gospel.

Bottom line in my opinion is that the letters which Paul wrote are not the gospel but only a route to the Gospel, the church would not be a church with out them.


447 posted on 01/26/2011 5:41:28 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: ravenwolf

I do not have time to get into this more here or feel the need to, as i have been going back and forth on this with another poster for well over a months, one of which is here. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2618333/posts?page=7010#7010 One must first be justified to do works of faith, though that may be one event.


449 posted on 01/26/2011 7:57:20 AM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: ravenwolf

Works done for the purchase of personal salvation are not good works; they are “Filthy rags.”
.


451 posted on 01/26/2011 8:40:08 AM PST by editor-surveyor (NOBAMA - 2012)
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