Hey blasater1960, I’ve been reading this thread and have a few questions which I would like to see your take on.
1. You state, correctly, that Jesus was not the first person resurrected and that others before were resurrected. My understanding is that all of these resurrections were by a direct action on God’s part. In other words, only God can resurrect a person from the dead. If that’s the case, how was Jesus resurrected since he was sealed inside a tomb and, if He was ungodly as you and others here have alleged, why would God raise Him from the dead, seeing that this action would cause confusion among the faithful.
2. We are told over and over and over that the Bible we use is incorrectly translated, yet the very first Christians were Jews who accepted that Jesus was the Christ after being taught this from passages in the OT. I understand that the people in these times would not have had the education that we benefit from today, but I also understand that a Jew from the time of Jesus would have been very leery of any act that would have excluded them from life centered around the Temple or Synagog, as it was the center of Jewish life at that time. How do you explain this willingness to give up everything that they had to follow Jesus if there were any doubt at all about His claims?
3. You (at least I believe it was you, I may be mistaken) earlier made the claim that YHWH is not a man and the idea of a Triune Godhead is a pagan idea imported from Greco-Roman sources. I disagree, but would like to see how you answer this question. We, as Christians, believe that there is a single God, with seperate yet intertwined portions. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. We believe that this Triune nature is reflected in our own nature as men in that we have a Mind that guides and rules us (much like God the Father), a Body that exists on this world (much like God the Son) and a Soul that, being given to us by God Himself, is always wanting to be reunited with our Creator and desires to do His will (much like God the Holy Spirit). Even in the OT, we see YHWH the Creator, His Holy Spirit and the Angel of the Lord (Exodus 3:4 calls Him ‘elohiym) who is listed as God and treated as such, but not YHWH. How is that not the same thing that we, as Christians, have been saying all along?
Sure, anytime.
1) In other words, only God can resurrect a person from the dead. If that’s the case, how was Jesus resurrected since he was sealed inside a tomb and, if He was ungodly as you and others here have alleged, why would God raise Him from the dead...
Yes, resurrections are of G-d. G-d is omnipresent and doesnt have to be in a physical form (he cant be physical per Deut 4:15)in order to resurrect someone. When the resurrection took place by Elijah, for example, G-d was not there in the flesh, so G-d need not be there in the flesh for Jesus to resurrect. In fact, at the end of time and all the righteous resurrect, there is no personage there commanding it to happen. So, there is no problem with G-d raising Jesus from a sealed tomb. My point however was not to prove that his resurrection is doable, the point is the resurrection in and of itself is not a unique event. And that faith in a resurrected personage is NEVER a scriptural command by G-d. There is not one scripture in all the Jewish Tanakh that says: When the messiah is resurrected, you will have faith in it or else. Faith is NEVER mentioned because it will take zero faith when the messiah comes. The entire world will see the fulfillment of exhaustive and exclusive messianic tasks, that no one but messiah ben David can fulfill.
The question, did Jesus ressurect? He could have...I dont know. But it is not part of messianic fulfillment so I need not answer that question.
2) How do you explain this willingness to give up everything that they had to follow Jesus if there were any doubt at all about His claims?
Well, there is a very simple answer to that. A) They were uneducated and couldnt read the Torah or Tanakh. They relied on miracles rather than messianic requirements stated in the Tanakh. B) I believe that they expected Jesus to return quickly with the Heavenly Host and rout the Romans. For Example:
Matt 16:28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." .....So they are thinking that he will return shortly, within that generation before they all die. The problem is, that he didnt return before they all died with his kingdom. So, how do the gospel writers solve that problem? They attribute that statement to the transfiguration.
Matt 17: 1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
Six days later? (8 in other gospels) Some would not taste death? Then who did taste death in those six days? And where was the kingdom and the power? Only Moses and Elijah appear? Thats it? Then Peter makes the three equivalent?
So, at any rate. Between the miracles and the promises of imminent return, it is easy to see how they would believe it. Look at the crazy mormon story. Joseph Smiths diciples believed his story and many of them were chased accross the US and even killed for their silly belief. And muzzies who blow themselves up by the thousands for a lie of 72 virgins....
3)You (at least I believe it was you, I may be mistaken) earlier made the claim that YHWH is not a man and the idea of a Triune Godhead is a pagan idea imported from Greco-Roman sources.
That was probably me....I do agree with that statement.
Even in the OT, we see YHWH the Creator, His Holy Spirit and the Angel of the Lord (Exodus 3:4 calls Him ‘elohiym) who is listed as God and treated as such, but not YHWH. How is that not the same thing that we, as Christians, have been saying all along?
Okay, in Exodus 3:2, the angel of YHWH appears.....First notice that it is not G-d in the flesh but an angel, probably in the form of a man. (Like Gen 18).
Exodus 3:4, When YHWH say Moses approaching, Elohim called to him.......Here, YHWH are equivalent. It is not uncommon for there to be a name change from the holiest name YHWH, to Elohim or sometimes El. It does not involve a change in personage within the godhead. For example, Is 45 has the YHWH 23 times. Ans several times, like 45:3,5,18, you see YHWH directly connected to Elohim, when G-d is proclaiming His singular unity. From the Blue Letter Bible:
45:3 And I will give 5414 thee the treasures 214 of darkness 2822, and hidden riches 4301 of secret places 4565, that thou mayest know 3045 that I, the LORD 3068, which call 7121 [thee] by thy name 8034, [am] the God 430 of Israel 3478...........YHWH is 3068.......Elohim is 430.
45:5 I [am] the LORD 3068, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God 430 beside 2108 me: I girded 247 thee, though thou hast not known 3045 me:
45:18 For thus saith 559 the LORD 3068 that created 1254 the heavens 8064; God 430 himself that formed 3335 the earth 776 and made 6213 it; he hath established 3559 it, he created 1254 it not in vain 8414, he formed 3335 it to be inhabited 3427 : I [am] the LORD 3068; and [there is] none else.
Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses5707, saith5002 the LORD3068, and my servant5650 whom I have chosen977 : that ye may know3045 and believe539 me, and understand995 that I [am] he: before6440 me there was no God410 formed3335 , neither shall there be after310 me.......God 410 is El.
It is interesting to note that both El and Elohim can be used to describe non-gods. Moses is called Elohim...judges are called Elohim...Idols can be called El. But when used with the unspeakable name of G-d, YHWH, the meaning is clear. One G-d, One Creator as in 45:18 YHWH and Elohim are both the Creator and at the end of the verse, I am YHWH and there is none else.
Finally a person have to account for Deut 4:15, where G-d clearly states His non-physicality
"So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire,........Watch yourselves carefully? Since you saw NO form! Why is this important? Because NEVER wants us to worship a form of any kind (next verse) Because when man worships a form...it is then idolatry. This is the whole beauty behind the revelation of YHWH! All other religions have some type of image or personage to worship. NOT WITH HaShem! (YHWH) A singular unity G-d with no image!
shalom