Posted on 01/21/2011 2:42:59 PM PST by wmfights
Wow. There’s a lot of bad logic going on here.
1. God knew Adam was going to eat of the apple, and he put it there anyway. Why? As the Church Fathers incorporated into the Easter Liturgy: “O Necessary Sin of Adam, which hath gained for us a redeemer!”
2. Whole means “all portions thereof.” When Matthew uses the same word to say, “And Jesus about all of Gallilee,” does Matthew mean that Jesus trod through every closet and cellar and over every promentory, and through every thicket? Jesus meant that his salvation would come to every nation, and every people, not that each individual would be saved. The purpose was to spread the gospel, not just to Israel, or who the disciples with their human judgment presume might be saved.
3. “All” does not mean “every one.” In some places, its meaning is closer to “every group.” In some places, its meaning is closer to “the entirety of whoever this is relevant to.” Due to the rampant misunderstanding caused by the Eucharistic prayer, “for the sins of all,” the new translation is “for the sins of the many.” (Latin: “pro multi”)
4. Free will does not mean God doesn’t know what our choices will make. It means that our choices are intrinsic to ourselves, and not to extrinsic factors. When we are slaves to sin, we lack free will, but instead are compelled by fear, addiction, concupiscence (habit of evil), or ignorance. When we put our trust in God, we have nothing to fear, our addictions are broken, we know the right path to take, we can overcome our concupiscence (even though we still have it). We are restored to the innocence of our creation, without the taint of original sin.
Freedom is not capriciousness; the free man dies not act on vain whims. The man who is liberated in Christ acts with purpose and determination, because he knows what he ought to do, and is empowered by Christ to do it.
This language gets Catholics and Calvinists caught up in misunderstanding. Because a saved person acts in conformity to the will of God, Calvinists emphasize that he is a servant of God, and therefore sees this as not free will. Instead, they see free will as willfulness. The point is that when we are in sin, we do the will of Satan, when we are saved, we do the will of Christ.
*side note: Why is it so easy for modern Calvinists to understand that “all” means only the entire audience in some passages of the bible, but they get so caught up with the notion that Mary must have sinned because Paul tells his audience that they all have sinned? I say “modern Calvinists” because Calvin’s immediate followers sure thought she was sinless and forever virgin.
In his writings against Pelagius, St. Augustine clearly argued for both.
You cannot make that choice until you are given the wisdom from above to understand truth. As Pilate experienced, people cannot see truth even if it is standing in front of them.
Believing brings no boast in self because human qualities, works and achievements play no part in why and how God saves. From start to finish, the boast is "Christ!" Faith is God's gift
Ephesians 2 explicitly states our faith is a gift from God. As do the other scriptures quoted below.
Ephesians 2 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
1 Corinthians 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Philippians 2:13 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Romans 9:16 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
We have no freewill to choose God, but we have freewill to reject God. Hence, our belief comes from the Holy Spirit through the Word and Sacraments. Belief is a gift from our Lord. Our unbelief is our personal rejection.
Ephesians 2 Made Alive in Christ 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Romans 8:6,7 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International Version, ©2010) 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
“If I were to see you blasting down the road and I knew that a bridge was out just around the next curve, so close that you’d never be able to stop in time, would you be in my thrall because I saw you and knew that, thereby meaning that I forced you run into the river?
No, you wouldn’t be in thrall to me. Just because the outcome is known that does not change the fact that you had and have choices to make of your own free will, and continue to make those choices until the day you leave this earth.”
Great explanation.
I think that God does give what is needed to believe in Him and the salvation message....but each has those appointed times where they are presented with a choice which in many cases is over a period of time. He “draws” us to himself which indicates time... a progression of understanding and our willingness to hear or not.
Some will require years....some early on have a foundation of Christianity. But each man eventually chooses. The ability to turn away from the truth is evidenced in the scriptures. Also indicating a choice.
Adam and Eve had a choice. God said don’t....they said no.
I agree to this but there does come that moment where we decide to believe or not.
If man has no free will, then there can be no sin. If man is a preprogrammed organic robot that can only do what God wills, then how can man be held responsible for sin? And if there is no sin, then redemption is a sham.
Yet we see in Genesis 3 man disobeying God'd direct commandment. Gen 3:11 And he (GOD) said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Clearly man has a choice.
What never fails to amuse me is all these science fiction fans who are fascinated with time travel. If you can travel into the past, then you're coming from a fixed future in the perspective of the people in the time you chose to visit. And, if the future is not fixed, then there would be no future to which to return, either.
Something tells me that the various authors and screenwriters would be aghast if they ever realized that they've inadvertangly reinforced "predestination." They'd certainly be at pains to find an explanation outside Christianity, at a minimum."
I reproduce in total your post because it contains a number of excellent points. The first is, of course, there is no possible way that God could "guess" or "prophesy" any particular future event accurately unless he both knew that event in detail and was fixing its outcome. These elements (foreknowledge and predestination) are so intimately associated, and may I add foundational to our understanding of who God really is, as to be essential in a good biblical theology. Those denying them may not realize they are impugning their God. Thus, your remark about "...if it's knowable it is to some extent fixed." is dead on. I would simply strenghten it by saying it is "absolutely fixed".
Your theoretical statement about time travel is very interesting and one I have not heard before. Thanks for this. And the irony you note about authors & screenwriters made me chuckle. You are right...their entire world is dependent upon biblical Christianity being true. But, in their darkness, they would deny every word of this statement. Great points. I'll look for more of your insights.
Discernment is not a condition of salvation. We are discussing different views. To be saved Christians must believe The Gospel. What we are discussing is what caused you to believe.
Those that believe in free will claim they believed because they are able to discern truth better than those that don't believe. Those that believe in predestination believe they believed because God gave them that gift of belief.
You won't get an argument about that from any Reformer-including Calvin. But if God brings you to repentence, gives you faith, and provides the wisdom to choose; would it be so difficult for you to decide?
I agree with you that God draws us, but I disagree that once we are His we can walk away.
John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
I think the ones who we believe were one of us and walked away were never really one of us.
What causes us to believe?
To clarify...absolute foreknowledge and predestination do not equal making us "mindless automatons" or puppets. Puppets & automatons do not have minds. We can see, think, act, behave, choose, all being managed by God Himself. We get to ride along watching and behaving and thinking about this maginificent control. Even folks like Pharaoh are managed into their evil. Recall, God said He would harden Pharaoh SO THAT he would deny Moses the opportunity to leave...not becuase he denied Moses. God caused him to decide this way.
The Scripture tells us that this kind of amazing management is occurring all the time (if you need more examples, let me know) It is a part of the genius of God. There is no analogical counterpart. I cannot say, "It is like such and such..." There is simply no other situation in existence to liken it to. Paul writes that God hardens whom He will and (notice, not "allows to choose Him", but) has mercy on whom He wills. So then, it does not depend upon the man who runs (acts) or the man who wills (chooses), but upon God. And, He manages each detail into existence, precisely at the time and in the way He needs it to behave, think, act, perform such that He really is God of His universe.
You may wish to argue (along with those Paul expected to argue with him in Rom. 9), that this is simply not fair. That may be...in your thinking. But, it does not, according to Paul change the situation as it exists in reality. God is both Just and the Potter (and what a beautiful Potter He is). We are the mud. He molds, shapes, moves every dent, bulge, crack in the pot. We are almost, but not quite, like the inanimate crockery. The image of pottery is simply to emphasize the distance between us and our God. The true distance is even greater.
So, the thought of Him taking an interest in us, to reach down, to rescue us using the blood of His precious Son, a member of the Triune Godhead, should be both astonishing and humbling. But, sometimes we rasise up and demand a say in the whole matter. He, fortunately, does not grant that silliness, although He manages the silliness into us.
So, with all due respect, your remark about "Foreknowledge does not equate with control." is mistaken. While the concepts of foreknowledge, foreordination, predestination are not identical, they are, as I mentioned, intimately associated. They are deeply reliant upon each other as characteristics described by the Scriptures of a God Who is both Transcendent and Sovereign. And, prophecy is simply an expression of the interaction of foreordination being predestined and then spoken of by foreknowledge.
Omniscience (all knowingness) and foreknowledge are slightly different. If you are implying that no one would deny foreknowledge, I believe you are incorrect. But, that matters little. Read Post #96. There is no "gift of free will". Augustine argued this against Pelagius many centuries ago. Your group pronounced Augustine the winner.
We've drifted off to predestination vs foreknowledge, but one thing occurs to me if the sacrifice at Calvary was for all men then the Cross is insufficient to save us. We would have to bring something to our judgment.
An argument that seems to settle upon repugnance of the results of an outcome as being the proof that it cannot be true, is not good thinking. See post #96, then we'll visit again.
>> We have no freewill to choose God, but we have freewill to reject God.
If we can reject by freewill ... then we can accept by freewill (even if only by choosing not to reject).
SnakeDoc
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