Posted on 01/21/2011 2:42:59 PM PST by wmfights
>> We don’t come to Christ. Christ comes to us calling us to be fishers of men.
Christ calls to all individually. Only some accept His overtures — and they do so by their choice. If Christ does not seek all, then He has already forsaken some that will never have the opportunity to know or follow Him.
SnakeDoc
Ephesians 2:8 8For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
We do not choose to believe, the Holy Spirit brings us to faith. Our salvation is solely completed through Christ.
Here is a re-post of my response to you yesterday. I believe scripture is very clear on how we come to faith, through the Holy Spirit, not of our own doing:
The Apostle Paul leaves no room for defining God’s grace as less than a gift from a gracious benefactor to a poor helpless beggar.
Believing brings no boast in self because human qualities, works and achievements play no part in why and how God saves. From start to finish, the boast is “Christ!” Faith is God’s gift
Ephesians 2 explicitly states our faith is a gift from God. As do the other scriptures quoted below.
Ephesians 2 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
1 Corinthians 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Philippians 2:13 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Romans 9:16 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
“But God, being rich in mercy, through his great love wherewith he loved us, being dead in sins, has together with Christ made us alive (by grace are ye saved) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in heavenly places in Christ in order that in the coming ages he might demonstrate the overwhelming wealth (the singular neuter noun and its neuter adjective) of his grace in lovingkindness toward us in Christ Jesus (for by grace ye are saved through faith) and this, (singular neuter pronoun, ie., the “overwhelming wealth”) [does] not [come] from you, [it is] God's gift, (singular neuter noun, ie, the apposition of the “overwhelming wealth”); [it does] not [come] from works, in order that no one should boast. Because we are his ongoing workmanship in Christ Jesus for the purpose of good works which God has prepared in order that we should be walking around in them.”Without the parenthetical comments (other than those in the text) and with the singular neuter “this” accompanied by its singular neuter referent and apposition, the singular neuter noun “gift” (and a more English way of speaking):
“But God, being rich in mercy, through his great love wherewith he loved us, being dead in sins, has together with Christ made us alive (by grace are ye saved) and has raised us up together and has made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ in order that in the coming ages he might demonstrate the overwhelming wealth of his grace in lovingkindness toward us in Christ Jesus (for by grace are ye saved through faith) and this overwhelming wealth does not have its source in you. It is a gift of God. It does not come from what you do, in order that no one should boast. Because we are his ongoing worksmanship in Christ Jesus, in order that we should be doing those good works which God has prepared for us to do.”* To translate this, I used: The Greek New Testament, edited by Aland K, Black M, Martini CM, Metzger BM, and Wikgren A. Institute for New Testament Textual Research. 1968.
I don,t think i want to comment on most of this because i can see at least a little of both sides, and do not understand what the bottem line is.
However you mentioned the people who have never had no chance to hear the Gospel, the Aborigines, the Bushmen, the Eskimos, or the American Indians, who died before the time of Christ.
This will open a can of worms probably but thats what i do the best.
Jesus said that this gospel would be preached to all the world and then the end would come.
How could it be preached to all the world, meaning all people if the people was not in a position to hear it?
The Gospel can be heard in all of the earth today but not many years ago it could not have been.
The Bible speaks of incarnation, could there also be reincarnation? in other words since i did not have a chance to hear the Gospel when i was here the last time, am i getting another chance now?
That is the only way that i can think of that all as in the Arminian position could be saved, and in the the Calvinist position, i don,t know.
well, i am sure many people will say i am bound for hell, but i hope they are wrong.
Sorry, I mean this with no dis-respect, but I do not understand your argument or how your translation is different.
Our faith comes from the Grace of God, through the Holy Spirit, not from ourselves.
God Bless
It's thought that man understood the plan of salvation to some extent, even though Jesus hadn't come yet. It's foreshadowed in the comment to Adam and Eve that Eve's son would crush Satan's head.
Animal sacrifices are recorded as far back as Adam and Eve's children. Through the animal sacrifice system, there was understanding and acceptance that innocent life had to be substituted for forgiveness of sins". And more importantly was the concept that they needed forgiveness and that forgiveness could only be granted by God.
The Bible records "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgement." So that would seem to preclude reincarnation.
"However you mentioned the people who have never had no chance to hear the Gospel, the Aborigines, the Bushmen, the Eskimos, or the American Indians, who died before the time of Christ."
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
The above verse indicates, that even men who have not heard the gospel, have enough knowledge of God and their own sinful state, that they are without excuse.
Adam and Eve and Noah understood at least vaguely the plan of salvation, which I assert in my prior post. Practically all cultures had knowledge of the great flood, though the story was sometimes changed in some respects.
It's reasonable to assume that all cultures started from Noah with an understanding of God and their need for forgiveness, and the animal sacrifice system and salvation.
At least some of the North American Indians, who worshiped the Great Spirit, responded "It's easy to believe in your Jesus, because we already worship your God."
But many cultures abandoned God. If a man/people abandons God and fails to teach his/their children about God, is God obligated to send missionaries to those children?
Apparently they still have sufficient basic knowledge of God despite growing up in a pagan culture.
The only way God's plan could be imperfect is if He put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden and didn't know Adam and Eve would eat from it.
I believe that Adam and Eve repented and had Faith in God after the fall. The first killing of animals is God making tunics for Adam and Eve. I think that their Faith was credited to them for righteousness as with the other OT saints.
The Bible records “It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgement.” So that would seem to preclude reincarnation.
“However you mentioned the people who have never had no chance to hear the Gospel, the Aborigines, the Bushmen, the Eskimos, or the American Indians, who died before the time of Christ.”
Great post. I remain surprised at how many times the "it's not fair, God has no right to do that" argument is made. Always makes me chuckle. :)
Mischaracterization of something that Christians have done for 2000 years going all the way back to what the Apostles received from Christ. It is about Christian practice, not about what heretical theological revolutionaries like or dislike.
Well, God will always reach out to us and find us, like the 1 lamb out of 100, but just like the Prodigal Son, we can walk away and stay away. God will receive us back, but we can reject Him.
You use the term "mischaracterization". Do you mean I am making a mistatement when I say transubstantiation is a reenactment of the crucifixtion of Christ? Read the RCC Catechism and notice that it is a redux of the sacrifice being effected anew for the supplicant. Explain.
OR, do you mean that I am mischaracterizing the fact that Christians have believed transubstantiation for 2000 years? If this were the case, you would have to be claiming that the apostles and all Christians understood the supper in terms of transubstantiation. History tells us that it took several hundred years for trans to get traction. Explain.
As far as, "...heretical theological revolutionaries..." go, if you mean the men like Paul, Augustine, Calvin who spoke against certain popular theological positions of their day, I respectfully disagree with your assessment
It is not redux. It has never gone away ie the Mass is celebrated every day of every year except for Holy Saturday and has been celebrated on Earth every day except Holy Saturday going back to Apostolic time. It is a re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Jesus in the presence of those of the Faith where we pray for the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, as He instructed us in the Bible. I doubt that you need refreshing on the pertinent verses. :)
OR, do you mean that I am mischaracterizing the fact that Christians have believed transubstantiation for 2000 years? If this were the case, you would have to be claiming that the apostles and all Christians understood the supper in terms of transubstantiation. History tells us that it took several hundred years for trans to get traction. Explain.
Traction? Well, let us see some literary evidence aside from what we already know in the Bible.
The Didache
But concerning the Eucharist, after this fashion give ye thanks.
First, concerning the cup. We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine, David thy Son, which thou hast made known unto us through Jesus Christ thy Son; to thee be the glory for ever.
And concerning the broken bread. We thank thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which thou hast made known unto us through Jesus thy Son; to thee be the glory for ever.
As this broken bread was once scattered on the mountains, and after it had been brought together became one, so may thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth unto thy kingdom; for thine is the glory, and the power, through Jesus Christ, for ever.
And let none eat or drink of your Eucharist but such as have been baptized into the name of the Lord, for of a truth the Lord hath said concerning this, Give not that which is holy unto dogs. ( 9:1-5)
On the Lord's Day of the Lord gather together, break bread and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions SO THAT YOUR SACRIFICE MAY BE PURE. Let no one who has a quarrel with his neighbor join you until he is reconciled by the Lord: "In every place and time let there be OFFERED TO ME A CLEAN SACRIFICE. For I am Great King," says the Lord, "and My name is wonderful among the Gentiles." (14:1-2)
So, we have the Didache, considered an early form of instruction by and for the Apostles and their successors touching on the fact that the Eucharist is a sacrifice and not to be taken unless the person was baptized. Also, please note that the reason why is that the Eucharist is holy. Not just an important memory, but holy.
Let us move on to St Clement.
ST. CLEMENT OF ROME (Alt)
St. Clement was the third successor of Peter as Bishop of Rome; otherwise known as the third Pope.
"Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity."
Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians
"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."
Source: Letter to the Corinthians, [44,4]
Now, we can move over to St. Ignatius.
St. Clement of Rome was the third successor of Peter the Apostle as bishop of Rome, our fourth Pope. St. Irenaeus (Book III, iii) tells us that Clement "saw the blessed Apostles and conversed with them, and had yet ringing in his ears the preaching of the Apostles and had their tradition before his eyes, and not he only for many were then surviving who had been taught by the Apostles. " Similarly Epiphanius tells us that Clement was a contemporary of Peter and Paul. There is a tradition that he was ordained by St. Peter and acted as a kind of auxiliary bishop to Linus and Anacletus, his predecessors in the papal chair. His letter to the Corinthians was written between 70-96 A.D. in an effort to restore peace to the Church at Corinith, Greece, which has broken into factions and was intent upon firing some of their presbyters. The epistle, which is written in Greek, is important because of the distinction it makes between leaders of the community and the faithful. Clement refers to the leaders as presbyters or bishops, without making any further distinction, referring specifically to their ministry as the "offering of gifts." He says, "Our sin will not be light if we expel those who worthily and blamelessly have offered the gifts of the episcopacy." This is clearly liturgical language in light of Mt 5:23 and Lv.1: 2 and Lv 7:38, referring in this instance to the Eucharistic sacrifice offered by priests in the Mass.
St. Ignatius of Antioch was a pagan by birth and a Syrian. He became the third bishop of Antioch and may be considered an apostolic Father in the sense that he heard the Apostle John preach. About 110 A.D. he was sentenced to a martyr's death in the arena by the Emperor Trajan, who also put Pope Clement to death. On the almost 1000 mile journey to Rome from Antioch, Syria, the third largest city of the Empire, Ignatius wrote seven letters, which are his only surviving letters. They are addressed to Christian communities he presided over as bishop. He speaks of the Eucharistic mystery in mystical terms saying, "Therefore arm yourselves with gentleness, renew yourselves in faith, which is the Flesh of the Lord, and in charity, which is the Blood of Jesus Christ." His most famous passage says:
I am God’s grain, and I am being ground by the teeth of wild beasts in order that I may be found [to be] pure bread for Christ. My love has been crucified, and there is in me no fire of material love, but rather a living water, speaking in me and saying within me, ‘Come to the Father.’ I take no pleasure in corruptible food or in the delights of this life. I want the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who is the seed of David; and for drink I want his Blood which is incorruptible love.
His reference to "bread of God" is an allusion to John 6: 33, where Jesus says, "It is not Moses who has given you bread from heaven [manna], but it is my Father who gives you the Bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." The Eucharist was a model for the Christ centered approach of Ignatius since he sees the it as an example of the "undying love of Christ as he feeds us with his Flesh and Blood." There is no mistaking his tone in his letter to the Church at Smyrna as he speaks of the Gnostics who had a disdain for material reality:
Charity is no concern to them, nor are widows and orphans or the oppressed . . .They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which, in his goodness, the Father raised . . .
Like St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 10: 17, he saw the Eucharistic Body of our Lord as the unifying force in the Church. He wrote the Philadelphians:
Be careful to observe [only] one Eucharist; for there is only one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup of union with his Blood, one altar of sacrifice, as [there is] one bishop with the presbyters and my fellow-servants the deacons.
Another unforgettable reference is when he urges Christians to assemble in common and obey the bishop, "breaking one bread that is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against dying that offers life for all in Jesus Christ." These beautiful words sum up Jesus’ own teaching in John 6 and St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11. Notice also that he refers to the Eucharist as a sacrifice as did the authors of the Didache. Eucharistic theology seems almost complete in St. Ignatius.
And we have St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus, St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen and so on throughout the history of the Church.
As far as, "...heretical theological revolutionaries..." go, if you mean the men like Paul, Augustine, Calvin who spoke against certain popular theological positions of their day, I respectfully disagree with your assessment
Paul fought first against the Christians, and then against Christian heresies. I will not include him on a theological list with Calvin. Paul wrote affirmations of the Real Presence. So did Augustine. And Augustine did wander for some time, but came back to the Faith. Augustine was very particular and wrote often on the Real Presence. I will not include him on a theological list with Calvin. As a matter of fact, Calvin appears to follow the deeds of men like Marcion, Arius, Pelagius, and hundreds of other founders of their own religions.
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