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Posted on 01/21/2011 2:42:59 PM PST by wmfights
Your welcome and thanks.
I'm in complete agreement.
We exist to glorify God.
All of the admonitions to, "...do this, do that..." may seem to imply to you that there must be "freedom" to accompany the request or they would be meaningless. Sorry, this is your misunderstanding. The entire point of the Mosaic Law was to demonstrate the inability of the Jews to be holy. Irrespective of effort, intent, piety, or work. Read Paul's epistles, especially Romans & Galations. God asked Israel many times to do something, all the while denying them the ability to perform. Why? To demonstrate their broken natures. And, the need for His intervention.
God is managing it all. But, if you believe I am arguing that this removes my guilt, let me assure you I am not. The Scripture is crystal clear...men will be held responsible in spite of the fact that He manages us into the sin.
And an uproarious argument against this claim is precisely what Paul anticipated he would hear from Roman congregations who read his letter (Chap. 9). "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Paul's answer is sobering. Who exactly do you think you are to question God's right to do this? Are you God's judge? He can, and does, exactly as He wishes with each person, molding them, making them into vessels for honor...or destruction. Erase this material from your theology at your own peril.
AMEN, Dutchboy88!
May all Christians learn from your terrific posts on this thread to trust in God rather than in their own "good choices."
`Tis not that I did choose thee, `Twas sov'reign mercy called me Josiah Conder, a 19th-century London Congregationalist, prominent author, abolitionis who also worked to repeal Britain's anti-Jewish laws and the compiler of his best-selling "Congregational Hymn Book."
"Conversion and salvation must, in the very nature of things, be wrought and effected either by ourselves alone, or by ourselves and God together, or solely by God Himself. The Pelagians were for the first. The Arminians are for the second. True believers are for the last, because the last hypothesis, and that only, is built on the strongest evidence of Scripture, reason and experience: it most effectually hides pride from man, and sets the crown of undivided praise upon the head, or rather casts it at the feet, of that glorious Triune God, who worketh all in all. But this is a crown which no sinners ever yet cast before the throne of God who were not first led into the transporting views of His gracious decree to save, freely and of His own will, the people of His eternal love. Exclude, therefore, O Christian, the article of sovereign predestination from thy ministry or from thy faith, and acquit thyself if thou art able from the charge of robbing God." -- Absolute Predestination, by Jerome Zanchius, Chapter 5, III, (3)."But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." -- 1 Corinthians 15:10
For, Lord that could not be;
This heart would still refuse thee,
Hadst thou not chosen me.
Thou from the sin that stained me
hast cleansed and set me free;
Of old thou hast ordained me,
that I should live to thee.
and taught my op'ning mind;
The world had else enthralled me,
to heav'nly glories blind.
My heart owns none before thee,
for thy rich grace I thirst;
This knowing, if I love thee,
Thou must have loved me first."
I hope Harleyd won't mind me quoting him. He speaks to God's sovereignty so eloquently...
Why selecting that shirt would matter (or a pair of socks) I don’t know. But knowing that thought has brought me great comfort. We can rejoice because it means that God won’t allow us to make any decisions that won’t be for our benefit somewhere down the road. Even the bad ones like wearing a green shirt. ;O)When we choose that green shirt over the blue shirt, in some weird way God is guiding that decision-or perhap us for our benefit. And for scripture reference I would use, “All things work together for good with those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.” Somehow selecting that green shirt to wear for the day works for our good. That is part of the “All” in all things. This is indeed a mystery.
Amen, Harleyd!
All Christians are entitled to know the truth of your post and the great "comfort" and assurance predestination brings. Sadly, the world conspires to keep it from us and thus lay the free gift of salvation at our own feet, and not those of "that glorious Triune God," as Zanchius wrote.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
You provide such a breadth of examples of these treasured truths! Scripture, hymns, textbooks and even great former posts. The hits just keep coming. And, the commentary, to boot. Thank you for the great contributions here at FR. We are all richer for your efforts...and shall I add, because God moves you to bless us thusly? Grace to you, my FRiend and sister in Christ.
LOL. Indeed. Maui to AZ. Perhaps we will get an Obama train to everywhere, free, with guaranteed ridership. Just before the Chinese own us. But, sometime we will meet, my brother.
Right on. In fact, the term "foreknowledge" is has taken on a different theological meaning over the last 150 years then what it once meant. Foreknowledge in the strict biblical sense was always viewed as the knowledge of God. So if God "foreknew" something it was that God planned it, not that He had knowledge of what was about to happen. Thus Paul writes:
That is not what the scriptures tells us:
Man has control over it just like Cain had control over it. God told Cain "sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it". So what did Cain do? He went and murder Abel.
This is the flaw of man. We cannot master sin. We have no "free" will because we cannot master sin.
As far as Josuah's speech, he was already speaking to the choir. Once we are saved, Christians can "choose" to go off and sin. But like Jonah, God will always bring us back even though we smell like rotten fish.
I just want to be clear about a point. Cain was told by God that he must master his sin. There is, in that comment, a statement that man can indeed master sin. The problem is that Cain had no intentions of mastering sin. This is a very subtle but important point. We sin because we want to sin-we choose to sin if you will. We will NEVER choose not to sin. This is our flawed nature. God has to change this behavior.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my Catholic Apologetics and the Defense of the Faith ping list:
Please ping me to Catholic threads where I can help defend our common faith!
Harley,
Thank you for your posts. You have a way of articulating scripture very well. Are you an ordained minister?
You still have free will, but once you claim God's promises at the point of salvation, it becomes about God keeping His promises, not you keeping yours. But He also has a claim on you. By accepting Him as your Lord, you've explicitly given Him permission to work on you.
Also there's a profound change that occurs at the point of salvation. If you think about what happens, you recognize that God is, that God has a standard and that standard is good, that you haven't lived up to it, that you need forgiveness, that Jesus is God's plan of salvation, and you've taken action by accepting Jesus through prayer.
I don't think you can really unlearn that. It's like learning 10+10=20. Absent dimentia or Euclidean Geometry (pretty much the same thing lol), that information is with you for life.
Thus it's written. "He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it.".
You still have free will. But you can't divorce your Father. You might be adopted, but He's not going to divorce you. "I will never leave you nor forsake you". And the only court to file for divorce, the Judge is biased.
That contract is sealed. And it's very much like the contract He made with Abraham. Abraham agreed to the contract, but when it got time to actually make the contract binding, God knocked Abraham out, and walked through the cermonial path for both of them. It no longer depended on Abraham. It no longer depends on you.
That doesn't mean there aren't consequences if you don't put effort out. For one, you'll be miserable if you live in rebellion as a Christian. And then there's chastisement.
Of course that's His purpose, however if everything is pre-destined and there's no such thing as free will, why would God create those who don't glorify Him? Are all God's creation as he intended them to be or did God create a flawed product in mankind?
See, there's the rub. I believe our God is big enough that although He wants all his children to be in Heaven to worship him, He gave His creation free will for a reason and that is, we are to choose Him of our own accord.
Think about it this way: if everything was pre-destined for us, then what was the point in God creating Adam and Eve? Clearly He knew they would sin and clearly He had a plan for mankind's salvation as Jesus' birth, death and resurrection was foretold in the Old Testament long before Christ's birth.
So is God's creation of Adam and Eve imperfect if He knew (pre-destined) they would sin by eating from the tree of knowledge? As Jesus would be born thousands of years later and there was no path to salvation for Adam and Eve, where are they? Heaven or Hell? I don't pretend to know that answer.
Ordained minister!!!!! God wouldn’t allow me 500 feet near a pulpit! I have to sit in the parking lot just to listen to the services. Too much fire and brimstone for His taste I suppose. ;O)
LOL!
If we accepted Godly wisdom, we wouldn’t have crucified Him. The wisdom remains available for all to accept in verses of the very book you cite.
SnakeDoc
We don't come to Christ. Christ comes to us calling us to be fishers of men.
I think part of the confusion arises from adopting the “Nominalist” rather than the “Realist” ideas of will, freedom, and such. This rejection or unawareness of “Realism” also contributes to the sacramental theology donnybrook.
I have never been able to find the original source, but somewhere Augustine is said to have called God him to whom to serve is to be free. Further, in trying to look at the perichoresis of the Most Holy Trinity, I have come to appreciate (correctly, I devoutly pray) that in the Son the Divine Freedom is seen as perfect and joyful obedience and conformity of will
Finally, anyone who has ever been in love knows the joyful union of being free while being captive.
In light of these considerations it seems to me that this whole controversy seems framed from the get-go in such a way as to ensure fruitless controversy as the outcome.
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