Posted on 01/21/2011 2:42:59 PM PST by wmfights
>> You cannot make that choice until you are given the wisdom from above to understand truth.
... at which point you can make the choice. The wisdom is available to all, and accepting that wisdom is a choice.
SnakeDoc
Well, this may expose the distance between our two perspectives on exactly how God of Israel is described in our Bibles.
Prov. 21:1 The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes. (wherever?)
Prov. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap but its every decision is from the Lord. (every?)
Job 36:32 He covers His hands with the lightning and commands it to strike the mark. ("commands it"? the "mark"?)
Is. 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these. (all?)
The list could go on for miles. The evidence from Scripture is clear...there are no maverick molecules in the universe. There is One God, One manager of everything. The question becomes...why is this abhorrent?
LOL. I don't think that will be a problem.
Jesus did pay the price for the sins of the whole world. Yet not all are saved.
The sacrifice for all the sins of the whole world was made once for all. The pardon has been offered. But men still have to accept it. There remains one sin, failure to accept Jesus as Savior.
If they refuse, it will not take Jesus down from the cross, but it will make his sacrifice on their behalf in vain.
Perhaps your organization may wish to revisit the image they have concocted of a god. It evidently doesn't align with the God described in the Scriptures delivered by the God of Israel.
Is. 45:6,7 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though YOU HAVE NOT KNOWN ME; that men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, Causing well-being (goodness) and creating calamity (evil); I am the Lord who does all these.
How He does it without being guilty, I leave to Him. I am not fit to judge Him insofar as He is the measure of all things. But, reread the evidence, my FRiend...He is the author of all that is. There is nothing apart from Him.
The decision of if we believe or not...faith that’s it’s possible...even if the size of a mustardseed.
Amen.
There is no good that we can do to make up for our sins. For if we knew it was good, then it is only what we should have done anyway.
We needed a savior. However, when a condemned man accepts a pardon, do you consider the act of accepting a work? Hardly. Would you say he pardoned himself? no. You might say a man who turned down such a pardon condemned himself though.
What do you think Sovergnty is? Is a King sovereign only when he orders every action of every subject? Or is He sovereign because he "can" order every action of every subject.
God can clearly override man's will. In the Exodus, it's recorded that Pharoah hardened his heart several times, the last plagues, God hardened Pharoah's heart.
But in matters of salvation, if God chooses not to override man's will, does that make God less sovereign? I think not.
Well said.
The issue here is Pelagians don’t want to allow God to be God. We are, after all, good enough, noble enough to choose Jesus without God’s intervention. < sarc>
We were created in God’s image, and Pelagians have been returning the favor ever since.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
You sure about that? 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, - Hebrews 10:26
Well, I am certain of at least one thing...you do not read the context of the few verses you attempt quote as rebuttals. This passage from Paul's letter to the Hebrews is discussing the removal of the value of animal sacrifices as effectual, now that the Son of God has provided the single, one-time sacrifice of Himself. He is cautioning them not to rely upon a hybrid system as it is insulting to Spirit of grace.
It may do the RCC good to think about how they crucify to themsleves often the precious sacrifice of Christ through their abberant transubstantiation ritual.
ROFLOL. Okay, that is THE best one-liner of the week.
You are missing the point altogether. I am not saying that men do not do a thing they have called “choosing”. I am saying the Scriptures are clear. The directions those choices take are managed in every detail by God. Pharaoh, Joshua, Moses, you, me, that guy that shot the folks in Tucson.
We are under the management of the Sovereign & Transcendent God of Israel. That is the over-arching message of the Bible. It is not...God is testing the world to see who will be good enough to come to Him and who deserves Hell.
Review the kind of Gospel you think is correct here. Is there an all-complete, broken humanity full of sin and at war with God needing His drawing to be rescued OR are there a bunch of folks who come to their senses and on their own turn to Christ. If the latter is true...then we have a reward system. This may be pleasing to you, but it is incorrect.
The former is the situation. Every one who is rescued is actually chosen, elect before the foundation of the world and drawn out of their merited destruction, adopted into life eternal. They are made alive, while they were enemies of God. Then, and only then, can they begin to orient their thinking toward the Creator properly. And even this reorientation is the product of His work, not our own. I find this to be the message of the Bible. It is everywhere in the pages of the book.
Okay, lets look at this a different way. :-)
If belief is left to us we can choose and we can change our mind anytime we want. One day we may be saved and the next not. If this back and forth is going on then the Holy Spirit must be jumping in and out of us. However, that's not what Jesus said.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-
Is the free will argument you are making that we have free will to believe The Gospel, but after our free will is gone?
Interesting argument. If we follow it through this same convicted felon who has accepted the pardon can go right back to committing crimes and then will go back to prison if he's caught. IOW, salvation is only good if you "toe the line". If you deviate you lose it?
Our salvation is not dependent upon us, but entirely upon the work of Christ. It is therefore the height of arrogance to suggest that we by force of our own will completely undo that work.
We can’t even believe unless God gives us the faith to do so.
Amen
It is therefore the height of arrogance to suggest that we by force of our own will completely undo that work.
I wouldn't condemn the difference in opinion so fiercely. We are arguing an issue of discernment not our Faith in Jesus Christ. That being said, isn't it the logical next step that if through your free will you choose to believe you can at anytime choose not to believe. In effect the Holy Spirit becomes your servant coming and going at your call.
Both are correct. We need God to draw us AND we have to come to our senses and turn to Christ. God draws all men, but not all come to their senses. We have to respond to God's invitation.
You make accepting the gift of salvation, sound like work. It is not "work" to accept a gift. Nor does a "free gift" become a "reward" merely because you accept it.
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