Mormons split over polygamy practice, expert says at trial

The Vancouver Sun ^ | 5 Jan 2011 | Daphne Bramham

[Alex Murphy]

Even though the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints officially renounced polygamy in 1890, a religious studies expert says that mainstream Mormons are nearly evenly split over whether it should continue to be practised. W. John Walsh said Wednesday in B.C. Supreme Court that the LDS church's official position remains that polygamy is banned, but that it's possible that somewhere between 50 and 60 per cent of the church's members "would like a return of polygamy, which they see as a holy practice."

The other half would not like to see a return of polygamy and deem it to be "an archaic practise," said Walsh, who was testifying as an expert on behalf of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a constitutional reference case that will determine the validity of Canada's law prohibiting polygamy. (The FLDS split from the mainstream church over the practise of polygamy and the FLDS is the largest group of so-called "fundamentalist Mormons" in North America. Walsh estimated that there are 50,000 fundamentalist Mormons in North America, 10,000 of whom belong to the FLDS.)

If Walsh is right, that suggests that if Canada's law is struck down, it could cause a major schism in the LDS church and would likely mean a large contingent of disaffected Mormons wanting to immigrate to Canada.

[SNIP]

“There is no doubt in my mind that your attitude toward plural marriage will determine your place in eternity.” Those who choose 'plural' or 'celestial' marriage have a chance at the highest realm of heaven – the celestial kingdom – while those who don't may find themselves alone for all eternity.

[SNIP]

“If men were eternally limited to only one wife each, some women would never have the opportunity for exaltation."

[MissesBush]

LOL, again you are a non-Mormon assuming you know how the Mormon church works. One would be excommunicated FOR practicing polygamy, not for speaking against its practice and thus adhering to the church’s position on it. A bishop would only be concerned if an interest in polygamy were expressed, not the opposite. Sheesh, why don’t you people attend a Mormon congregation before pretending you know what goes on there. Trust me...you’re all making fools of yourselves and don’t even know it.

[cruise_missile]

Like Brigham Young who was pushing 70 when he married a 17 year old?

[sportutegrl]

You do realize that polygamy is all throughout the Bible. Furthermore, in the OT the men slept with their wives, their servants, and women captured at war, and even prostitutes. To say that JS is a pervert is like saying that all the patriarches were perverts.

Polygamy is not God's original plan for marriage. The best argument one could make is that God allowed polygamy, like he allowed divorce, but it is not His desire for us. There is nothing in the Bible that states that polygamy is a commandment.

However, even if you are allowed to do something, should you? What kind of evil man would want to cause his wife heartbreak and jealousy by taking another woman. Who would even think of forcing his own beloved daughter to marry a man she doesn't love. Who would kick out his teenage sons because they compete with the elders for scarce wives.

Brigham Young took so many new young brides that there was a saying in Utah: "Lovely girls mostly marry Young".

Polygamy is a "Commandment" because women wouldn't allow it otherwise.

[MissesBush]

When Joseph Smith was prophet, polygamy was commanded as it was when Abraham and others in the Bible practiced it so he was justified. And he stole no one’s wife. That is a lie. In fact at one point he told one man, I believe it was Heber C. Kimball, that he had been commanded to marry his wife to test his faith. When Kimball indicated he would obey that, Smith told him it was only a test of his faith and the Lord had not so commanded. So yes, at the time it was commanded it was holy practice. It no longer is.

Now that said—practice YOUR religion. Stop attacking the faith of others. If your own beliefs don’t allow you to practice your faith in an affirmative way, then I suggest you look into some other religion that does.

[Zakeet]

I know that you Anti-Mormon Religous Biggots will stop at no lie .... no distortion .....no insult ..... and no decency to demean the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (similar to the early trashing of the Church of Jesus Christ) ..... .... but ....

I am a life time member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints .... I am 50 years old ..... I have attended church nearly every sunday .... I Have lived in 9 different States and three different Countries ....

and to date ..... I have NEVER heard a single member express a desire for the return to the Abrahamic Patriarchal Order (polygamy).

---

Your response raises the following questions:

• Doesn't Doctrine & Covenants Section 132 still read: For behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory?

  And doesn't this covenant refer to polygamy?

• In the U.S. Supreme Court case of Reynolds v. United States, 89 U.S. 145, didn't the LDS Church assert among other things that:
  • It was the duty of male members of said church, circumstances permitting, to practise polygamy.

  • This duty was enjoined by different books which the members of said church believed to be to divine origin.

  • The practice of polygamy was directly enjoined upon the male members thereof by the Almighty God, in a revelation to Joseph Smith, the founder and prophet of said church.

  • The failing or refusing to practise polygamy by such male members of said church, when circumstances would admit, would be punished, and that the penalty for such failure and refusal would be damnation in the life to come.

  • [Brigham Young's personal secretary] Reynolds had received permission from the recognized authorities in said church to enter into polygamous marriage.

  • [Reynolds' polygamous] marriage ceremony was performed under and pursuant to the doctrines of said church.

• Didn't at least two Mormon leaders (Joseph F. Smith and Heber J. Grant) defy the law and continue adding to their number of plural wives long after the LDS church promised to stop?

• Didn't all of the LDS Church presidents from 1830 through 1945 practice polygamy?

• Doesn't the LDS Church teach that polygamy will be re-instituted in the next life?

• Is it true Mormon leaders have taught that Mormonism's God, as well as Jesus were practicing polygamists?

• If polygamy became legal tomorrow, would the LDS Church cease to condemn it? Would polygamy again be a requirement for true salvation as taught by Brigham Young in 1866?

• In light of the above facts, is it not reasonable to believe that the basic premise of the article is valid: many within the LDS Church would return to the practice if it were again permitted by church leaders?

• Are we really "Anti-Mormon Religous Biggots (sic) who are stop[ing] at no lie .... no distortion .....no insult ..... and no decency to demean the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" by pointing out documented historical facts concerning the practice of polygamy by the leaders and members of the Mormon Church?

[Godzilla]

A bishop would only be concerned if an interest in polygamy were expressed, not the opposite.

Which is what I said, prior to your mormonic hyperkneejerking stepped in.

Sheesh, why don’t you people attend a Mormon congregation before pretending you know what goes on there.

Judging from the mormons encountered here, I would probably find even more there who didn't have a clue as to what they believed - but only mindlessly follow what ever the prophet sez.

But then 'God' must have been joking when s/he said it was an 'eternal' principle eh?

[greyfoxx39]

To say that JS is a pervert is like saying that all the patriarches were perverts.

THAT kind of post is gar-own-TEED to win you lots of FRiends here.

[Alex Murphy]

During the 1992 campaign when it was revealed that Clinton had smoked pot and dodged the draft, I and many others thought there is no way he'd ever be elected based on those reasons alone.

I had the same reaction, when Clinton said in his 1992 DNC acceptance speech that he was "fed up with politicians in Washington lecturing the rest of us about 'family values'."

[SENTINEL]

How many times do you people have toi be told. Either HEED and ACCEPT the words of Chirst himself, or QUIT CLAIMING TO BE CHRISTIANS ! You cannot have it both ways.

Matthew(KJV) 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Luke 20:34-35
34: And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage
35:But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

And don't give me any "Mistranslated" garbage about these portions of the Bible, this is Matthew 22 from the JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION !!

Matt 22:28-29
28 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.
29 For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angel of God in heaven.

[Osage Orange]

Six "I's" and you misspelled bigot.........

It's always interesting to see mormon's reference "the Church" and themselves so much.

Hardly a mention of your love,devotion,commitment,contract, covenant... with/to Jesus..

Such hostility.....teppe, why?

[rickomatic]

I respectfully disagree. I only said that it is not something JS invented and has biblical justification. That list of perverse you listed is not biblical, in fact, just the opposite. Many of them were punished by death. There are cases were polygamy is very humane. In the case of widows with children(who may or may not be ill), unmarried women who cannot find a suitable man(who may or may not be ill), a homeless woman in need of care...etc Polygamy is not always about sex. There many other potential issues which are quite rational. In some cases, if whole family agrees, it is just the right thing to do.

240B
Number 1:Do you approve/justify Joseph Smith's polygamous practices, including his theft of other men's wives, and having sexual relations with minors? This is what he practiced, and if you are basing your eternal soul on the teachings of such a man, so be it.
Number 2:Since Joseph Smith attempted to justify his polygamous relationships by saying it was to procreate, how does this not involve sex?

Number 3: I would assume that you, along with others posting in defense of this practice, approve not only of the actions of "the prophet", but believe it is a viable option today. I do not suppose to put words into your mouth. You must either defend explicitly, or condemn vigorously these charges.

[Osage Orange]

When you have a good PR machine....a known rapist, liar, cheater, and foreigner can be elected President.

[cruise_missile]

You really don't know Mormon history.

“Twenty-one of Brigham Young's fifty-five wives had never been married, six were separated or divorced from their husbands, sixteen were widows, and six had living husbands from whom divorces had apparently not been obtained. Marital information is unavailable for six.”

Brigham married a lot of teenagers in that list.
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/brighamyoungswives.htm

Smith was probably worse in that front.

[Godzilla]

And he stole no one’s wife. That is a lie.

Smith married 11 women even as they were still married to their existing husbands

Lucinda Morgan Harris wife of George W. Harris
Zina Huntington Jacobs wife of Henry Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell wife of Norman Buell
Sylvia Sessions Lyon wife of Windsor Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner wife of Adam Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions wife of David Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde wife of Orson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee wife of Jabez Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland wife of John Cleveland
Ruth Vose Sayers wife of Edward Sayers
Elvira Cowles Holmes wife of Jonathan Holmes

The one lying to you is your church.

[240B]

Yes of course you are right.

Forcible marriage is never justified.
I’m speaking of a different matter where you have a woman in need, the wife, husband, children, all agree to welcome her into the immediate family.

I say, why not? Everybody benefits.

I guess I’m just not obsessing on the sex but thinking of it in practical terms.

[cruise_missile]

Joseph Smith’s wives:

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no112.htm

[SENTINEL]

MissesBush, it is obvious that you have no idea what the men are taught.

Did you know that in the temple MEN ARE GIVEN THE OPTION of NOT BRINGING THEIR WIFE THROUGH THE VEIL ? You're NOT EVEN GuARANTEED ENTRY to the "celestial kingdom" at all, you're first judged by you husband. He could have 100 wives and not even you at all under LDS doctrine !

I have heard many stories of men leaving their wives standing there during the ceremony as a threat.

And as far as the High Priests, again you have not attended their meetings and HAVE NO IDEA what you are talking about. Who exactly so you think are wives #2-28 ?....

[SENTINEL]

Godzilla, Szonian, Reaganaut, Greyfoxx39, Myself and others here are FORMER MORMONS, and we do know what we are talking aboout.

[cruise_missile]

LDS Leaders Still Believe There Will Be Polygamy in Heaven

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/ldsleadersbelievepolygamyinheaven.htm

[Godzilla]

I’m not an exmo sentinel - just have spent years studing it :)