Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ

LDS.org ^ | Dennis B. Neuenschwander

[T. P. Pole]

Thanks for responding. Might be interesting to compare the two. The 2005ish one claims to have poked through the archives and dug up previously unpublished corrections.

Unfortunately, $20 may be cheap, but groceries come first.

[TaraP]

What I said F15 is that I did not know much of Mormon doctrine....

I learned about GOD as a child from the Jehovah Witnesses.
They lived next door to me, my family did not even discuss GOD and the neighbor’s gave me a Book named *Paradise Lost* that I read at 7 yr’s old.

I have been to many Churches and Jewish Temples.I have never been in a Mormon Temple....I believe the Holy Scriptures and IMHO Messianic Judaism is what I believe comes closest to Jesus Christ teaching’s.

[reaganaut]

I suppose it is hard to see many doctrinal errors when you are in the LDS.

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That it is. The deception that Satan binds you with is very strong and even stronger in those who have been through the temple and taken Luciferian oaths.

[T Minus Four]

"We have one God"

This is a very important statement. If you are investigating Mormonism, please be aware that phrases such as this are carefully worded for the purpose of deceiving, except for once DU was up front.

The trick is NOT to say, "THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD"

They are very careful to say, "We worship one God", or "We have one God"

This is even before digging into the "God as a committee" concept.

[Elsie]

More MAXWELL stuff?

You be BRAVE!

FARMS must have left a bad taste in peoples mouths; so they did a little re-branding and.. viola!

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=4&num=1&id=93

[DelphiUser]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say to pray to know truth.

So, your contention is either that we are not commanded to pray, or that we are to pray to know what is false? Which is it?

Feelings are just that, not objective measurements of truth.

I did not say anything about feelings. My answer was not "just a feeling" and it was very specific. I find that the more specific the question, the more specific the answer.

That doesn’t mean we aren’t to pray, but we are not to pray to know something that can be objectively discovered.

All right, I'll bite, so, how do you know Jesus lived and died for you, objectively that is...(Remember, no praying allowed!)

Do you pray to know if gravity is true?

I have prayed that it would fail at precise moments in time, alas, I fell anyway.

Additionally, Moroni’s promise is a ‘catch 22’. It says you must be sincere, pray with real intent, and have faith in Christ and you will get the answer the the BoM is ‘true’.

All of which are things you have control over. If I give you a radio and say batteries not included, but you can get God's voice by putting in the right batteries and tuning to the right channel and you do neither does that mean God's not broadcasting? or is that a catch 22 also?

So...if you get an answer that it is not, then there must be something wrong with you (either you don’t have faith, you aren’t sincere, no real intent). You get yourself into this point where you keep praying until you convince yourself that it is ‘true’.

So, an insincere prayer will be answered?

A prayer without faith in God should still be answered by him?

Honest people will know when they are not receiving an answer and know what that means, charlatans will try to convince men not to pray about it at all.

It is a common brainwashing technique.

I wouldn't know, I don't remember being brainwashed </humor>

I guess intelligent people who really want to know from God not men will just have to try ti, and if they can't get an answer after a reasonable time, they'll join the chorus on your side, what's the problem?



Oh, all the people who join that way.... Well, I guess you'd better just keep teaching people not to pray to God then.

Delph

[greyfoxx39]

No due process, not moved to the back room, the rules were broken, and at the highest level of this forum.
Are you comfortable with that?

When someone OWNS a site, he can darn well make or break any so-called rule he wishes. Additionally, just exactly WHERE are you finding these rules? The "back room, the warning, then the suspension then the banning?"

HERE?

HERE?

HERE?

It darn sure isn't HERE!

I KNOW...you found them HERE! The Rule Book According to Joseph Smith

[T Minus Four]

That’s why it’s a good idea not to follow Christians, but only Christ.

[DelphiUser]

Again with whining about me not answering this? KJV, OK? I’ve answered this three times now, sheesh!

[SENTINEL]

I will admit, that seeing ANY JST references instead of POGP surprised me. This is newer than my resignation three years ago, or at least my last purchased copy of LDS scriptures.

You did not create the website, and I'm sure you didn't check them all any more than I did.

Tell me though, really, how is it possible that they don't use the whole JST ? Seems like a slap in the face to Joseph Smith. He said God told him to do it, and it took him years, why just discard it like that ?

[CharlesWayneCT]

No, it is a statement of belief of a religion. It is no more a shot at christians, than a thread titled “Jesus is Present in the Eucharist” would be a “shot” at protestants. It’s a statement of a belief that others do not share.

Realise that all religion (at least those that matter) are attacks on other religion. Having a religion is to say that other religions are wrong, and your religion is right. (I say those that matter because who cares about a religion that says other religions are also fine? What would the point be — if there are two religions, one of which says “we are the only way” and the other says “both of us are fine”, you might as well pick the one that is the “only way”, since the other one thinks that’s fine).

The idea of attacks is that they say that others are wrong. Stating what you think is right only does that tangentially — and all religions think they are right, and therefore attack other religions tangentially.

One value of caucus threads was in part to allow a religious group to discuss a specific aspect of their religion that they feel would be ridiculed or attacked by others who didn’t agree with it.

[Elsie]

 

In any case, it is completely unsubstantiated. Just like the Golden Plates.

 

These "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story.

 

 No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

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Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

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*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

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Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

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     .
 

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What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

 

[reaganaut]

Jesus would not have won a popular vote in his mortality either.

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WTH???? Are you saying that Jesus wasn’t moral?

[T Minus Four]

Are you comfortable with that?

You are the one who seems to be afraid. This isn't the only place on the internet to espouse your religion, you know. Go start your own conservative political forum and then PD can add you to his List-o-links.

[TaraP]

MATTHEW 23

Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces.

You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’

You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?

You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’

You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?

Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.

And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.

And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin.

But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

[T Minus Four]

That’s confusing. Do you question Joseph Smith’s translation?

[TaraP]

That’s why it’s a good idea not to follow Christians, but only Christ.

AMEN TO THAT!!

[Elsie]

...I have received an answer directly from God on this.

So has the WORLD...

 

When God speaks to you, the time for doubt is over.

So true!

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KJV

 Galatians 1:6-9

 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 

 

 

 

ANYBODY???

 

Like this fine looking fellow???

 

 

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

 12.  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

 

Like THESE guys??

 

 

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

 

 

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

 

 

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Ephesians 2:1-2 

1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

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1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

 

2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[reaganaut]

Sorry, from what I have read, T is right you would be an easy mark, you are exactly the temperment I would have picked out to ‘friendship’ and try to convert.

I’m sorry but its true.

I can admit that I was an easy mark, I was nominally Christian, didn’t know my bible that well, though Jesus was all about ‘peace and love’ and getting along, thought the outward appearance of conservatism and families meant that Mormonism had ‘good fruit’, was looking for religion and ‘the truth’, and didn’t see the Osmonds as the ‘spawn of Satan’.

yeah, I would have jumped on you with a BoM like white on rice.

I was an easy mark for them and so are many others.