Sola Scriptura and the Early Church

http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/solascriptura.html ^ | William Webster

[metmom]

The Catholic church claims that he’s Christ’s representative here on earth.

He doesn’t live much like Christ did.

It continues to amaze me, the levels to which Catholics will go to excuse or justify the excesses and deviancies of the priesthood and the hierarchy in their church.

I have never met a group of people so willfully blind to the faults of the organization to which they belong. That they will defend the perpetrators of heinous sins and blame the victims for being money grubbers looking for quick cash for their yatchs etc.

Can the Catholic church do ANY wrong in your eyes?

[wmfights]

Jesus said that whoever believes in Him has eternal life. HE is the way, the truth, the life and no man comes to the Father but through HIM.

He did not institute the church to be the vehicle for salvation. He did not institute sacraments and tell people that unless they partook, they weren't saved.

Amen

I thought we were on the same page, but sometimes it's good to clarify. I think lies keep being told with the hope that they become accepted as fact.

[Natural Law]

"Can the Catholic church do ANY wrong in your eyes?"

No, but apostates have done the Church tremendous damage.

[wmfights]

You'e either going to have to define and defend it from Scripture alone, or abandon the un-Biblical doctrine of "Scripture alone."

You miss the third option.

Don't purse discussions with those that go out of their way to mix subjects and in the process misrepresent the original point, such as your statement above.

[Natural Law]

"You've been given the "justification" of evidence dozens of times."

Your silence is deafening and speaks more than than the "dozens" of feeble denials, obfuscations, and a running charade of piety. Christian charity compels me to give you another chance to fail:

1) Define scripture and differentiate it from the hundreds of competing contemporary works rejected by Canon.

2) Provide a Scriptural table of contents or listing of the works that comprise Scripture.

3) Provide a Scriptural proof that establishes that 100% of the revealed Word of God is found in Scripture.

[Mrs. Don-o]

What I'm saying is that neither "sola scriptura" nor "sola house church" are Biblical principles.

If I am misrepresenting your position on house churches, then accept my apologies and define your position. Or at least define the term. That's not too much to ask.

[Judith Anne]

It is truly wonderful that some people who hate the Catholic Church are not members. It’s a genuine blessing that they do not sit beside me at Mass, worship the same way I do, believe in the same tenets, uphold the same traditions, and receive the Eucharist.

I’m so glad that they judge the Catholics and their Church. The same measure they use, will be used on them. My Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, Risen Son of the Living Almighty God, said so in Holy Scripture.

[CynicalBear]

Questions for Catholics

1. “God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” (Pius IX: Encycl., Ubi primum, February 2, 1849.) — [p. 12, number 12]

Question: Jesus never taught His disciple to teach that Salvation was through Mary. When did that change?

2. “O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.” (Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895.) — [p. 12, no. 13]

Question: Did Jesus deceive His disciples in the following verse?

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6

3. “With equal truth it may be said that of the great treasury of all graces given to us by Our Lord—for grace and truth came by Jesus Christ—nothing comes to us except through Mary’s mediation, for such is God’s Will. Thus, as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so no one goes to Christ except through his mother.” (Leo XIII, Encycl., Octobri mense, September 22, 1891.) — [pp. 13,14, no. 19]

Question: If that is true why did Jesus and the Apostles not tell those who they wrote to and preached to?

[Judith Anne]

Do you own those books from the 1800s? Or did you get those quotes online? Mind putting up a link, so we can all see that they are accurate? Or did you get them from some anti-Catholic site, which quoted them from somewhere else?

[CynicalBear]

>> Do you own those books from the 1800s? Or did you get those quotes online? Mind putting up a link, so we can all see that they are accurate? Or did you get them from some anti-Catholic site, which quoted them from somewhere else?<<

I have been gathering them from many sources each time trying to make sure it’s authentic. Comments made either by Catholics or those who disagree with them gets me curious enough to try to find the truth. Look at my name! If I’m wrong I want to know but will tell you if you are (as I understand it) as well.

Here is one of the sources. I have many more questions and will be posting them from time to time. If you have proof that the information is not that of the RCC don’t be afraid to let me know but understand that I will check. My name ya see! Hehe

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/

[metmom]

Well, here’s some more stuff to add to your collection.....

http://www.amazon.com/Ten-Meditations-Mysteries-Rosary-Ferraro/dp/0819801577/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272938246&sr=1-2

And it carries the official sanctions of:

ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.

WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR

p.32
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .

p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.

5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.

6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.

“Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary’s help, quickly slide toward hell.” —Richard of St Victor

p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! —Partial Indulgence

p41
“Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast.” —Prov. 3:18

p43
1 - “Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!”

p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, ‘that she might vanquish sin in every respect.’

p46
7 - “Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue.”

9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. ‘No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.’

p47
4 - “Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.’
.

5 - “She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought.”

p47
10 - “As Noah’s Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care.”

p50
8 - “If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between Him and us?”

p50
4 - “By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God.”

*****************************************************************************

And here is a pope’s idolatrous prayer to her, treating her as if she were God Himself.....

Prayer of Pope Pius XII
In Honor of the Immaculate Conception

http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm

Prayer of Pope Pius XII

Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!

O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.

Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.

[narses]

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[maryz]

“God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”

Are you forgetting that Christ -- by the Eternal Will of God -- did come to us through Mary? Perhaps you are one of those with a truly hazy concept of the Incarnation (the Word became flesh), who opine that the Most High Creator provided an incredibly detailed plan for salvation but unaccountably had to scrabble around at the last minute to find a Jewish girl who "fit the prophecies" (as if He were bound by prophecies someone else made!) because He forgot He'd have to have a mother for His Son.

[Natural Law]

"Do you own those books from the 1800s?"

There was a movement within the Catholic Church in the 19th century to more explain Mariology more thoroughly. The Church always saw Mary as the greatest of all Saints - graced by God in a unique and special way. It stressed that venerating and imitating her Christian obedience was a path to holiness and that holiness is a step towards Salvation.

Anti-Catholics, particularly apostate Catholics, continually display their ignorance of a very complex subject by quoting excerpts out of context and demanding a one or two sentence defense. It doesn't work that way. Faithful Catholics have done their homework, meditated on a number of thoughts and have embraced the dogma. Those who have not done their homework simply don't get it. It is like discussing the beauty of a sunset with the color blind.

[CynicalBear]

Thanks, will add. I fear that most who call themselves Catholic have no idea what the RCC truly believes and stands for.

[CynicalBear]

The problem you have with your little scenario there is that every time I site something the RCC believes it comes from official RCC sources. Deny all you want but if you don’t know what the RCC really says and stands for you need to study what it says.

[metmom]

Interestingly, while Catholics claim that every thing that reflects negatively on the RCC is from an anti-Catholic *hate* site, they go and post anything they find that reflects negatively on Protestantism and seem to consider it written in stone by God Himself in regard to truthfulness and accuracy.

Double standards are pretty much SOP for Catholics as a whole.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Let me clarify this point: you have provided no evidence that in the early centuries AD there was a congregationalist, sola-scriptura movement which would be accurately identified with the current term "Born-Again Bible Christian".

I am sincerely open to receiving any evidence of such.

But that's just what no "Born Again" "Sola Scriptura" Christian has been able to offer me: records, objects, names, places, dates, or any other archaeological, or documentary grounds that would establish the truth of their claim.

We know, for instance, that there were early churches in Colossae, Ephesus, Corinth, etc. because Paul wrote to these churches: he governed them, he commanded them, he told them how to live the Christian life. He was their leader, in the name of Christ. Did they "choose him from within their congregations"? Clearly not.

We know, also, that the first-generation Apostolic leadership chose successors (such as Matthias, who took the place of Judas the traitor), and that Paul trained and ordained second-generation leaders like Titus and Timothy. Again, there is no evidence at all that these successors and church-leaders --- Matthias, Titus, Timothy ---were voted for, chosen, elected, or selected by or from within their congregations. Rahter, they were appointed by those who ordained them by the laying on of hands.

Much of what we know of the Bible itself, we know from post-Biblical soures. For instance, even the authoriship of the four Gospels --- Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John --- is not provable from the Biblical texts themseles. How do you know Matthew wrote the unsigned text the Church identifies as the Gospel of Matthew? How do you know that Luke wrote "the Gospel of Luke" and the "Acts of the Apostles"? They are not signed works. Are there any 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd century Bibles that have a table of contents? How do you know what books comprise the Bible?

I'll be helpful for you here. I'll tell you how you know it: you know it from Tradition-with-a-capital-T: that which was handed down to you from the Apostles and their successors, confirmed by the Church authorities in councils and synods comprising those same successors, by this time known as Bishops.

Could you please supply me with an early-- say, pre-4th-century--- list of the books which comprise the Biblical canon? Assuming you have such a list, where did it come from?

Thanks in advance. I'm here to learn.

[CynicalBear]

Word games and run arounds don’t work maryz. You don’t think that the Pope’s pray to Mary directly either.(see metmom's post 131) You play word games trying to delude people into believing that what the RCC believes is really not what they believe. It reminds of the the “what the word is, is” debacle.

Here are a couple more for you to contemplate.

“All our hope do we repose in the Most Blessed Virgin, in the all-fair and immaculate one who has crushed the most cruel serpent’s poisonous head and brought salvation to the world.” (Pius IX: Apost. Const., Ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854.) — [p. 18, no. 39]

So it was Mary who crushed the serpents head?

“The Catholic Church has always and with justice put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.” (Leo XIII: Encyclical, Supreme Apostolatus, September 1, 1883.) — [p. 32, no. 104]

So all your hope and trust is in Mary rather then God Himself?

“She it was who, immune from all sin, personal or inherited, and ever more closely united with her Son, offered him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father....” (Pius XII: Encyclical, Mystical corporis, June 29, 1943.) [p. 37; no. 128.]

So it was Mary who “offered” Jesus on the cross? So important that neither Jesus or His apostles mention it?

[CynicalBear]

>> Double standards are pretty much SOP for Catholics as a whole.<<

Human nature trying to not believe that a lifelong trust is not what they thought it was.