[Bobsvainbabblings]

Sorry for taking so long to answer. To keep my bride from turning into a wife, I spent the last 2 days helping her put the house back to normal from Christmas.

Your next sentence is a real doozy. Jesus needed a way to have Himself executed while still being without sin. So are you implying that Jesus was just intentionally saying things to get them mad enough at him to kill him? How do you explain the OT Messianic prophecies that say this was going to happen? That say EXACTLY how he would be slain - not stoned - but crucified? You say "while he was still without sin" like at any moment he would get ticked off enough and blow it?

I will admit I could have phrased my post better. You didn't comment on the part I had wrong.  "This was the way He chose or God chose for Him."

I should have said, "This is the way God chose for Jesus and He obeyed."

Jesus could have been crucified if He murdered someone. He would no longer be sinless and it couldn't satisfy that prophecy.

God used the hardness of their hearts without violating their free will to make this happen.

Bottom line, the scripture was fulfilled.

 You have some strange theories about Christ and you could not have gotten them from a serious study of Scripture. It sounds curiously like Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses. Care to make your source known?

My source is Scripture with the aid of the Holy Spirit as Christ promised to members of His Church.

I grew up in a small town that had numerous Churches as was typical of that time including a Catholic Church. We had the 10 Commandments on the wall of most classrooms. We said the pledge and the Lord's Prayer first thing each morning at least through Jr. High. Winter break was still Christmas break including the singing of carols and a play centered on the birth of God's Son.

Spring break was still Easter along with the message of John 3:16, arguably the most quoted scripture in the Bible, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not parish but have everlasting life. 

All of this has one thing in common, the roles of the Father and Son. The father didn't die on the cross, the Son did to please His Father because His Father loves us. The Father asked and Jesus complied.

Jesus never asks us to pray to anyone but the Father in His/Jesus' name.

After school I spent 3+ years in the Navy. They last 6 months I dated a girl from that same town who had attended Catholic Schools. We got married in the Church after I got confirmed. I am sure the Doctrine of the Trinity was mentioned but it had little effect because of my well formed beliefs.

Going to confession and saying the Rosary were only done as required by a member of the Church. I stilled prayed and asked forgiveness from the Father in Jesus' name as I did before. We got a divorce after 5 years. All I will say about that is I was free to remarry which I did 4 years later.

My new bride is a Spirit filled Christians who wonders about me at times. We attended a church for about 6 months when I asked the choir director, "How come we seldom, if ever, sing worship songs to the Father or the Spirit, only to Jesus?" His answer, "If you sing to one, you sing to all." I asked him how he could make such a statement. The Doctrine of the Trinity was his answer. 

That was 30+ years ago. I still read scripture with the mindset that separates them. There is scripture after scripture where that is the case. Especially the greetings to the churches in the epistles and Christ's greetings to the Churches in Revelation.

I wonder if Zeriel's thought process works the same?

I thought I was the only one who was out of step until I learned it was made by men 300+ years after the fact and they would kick you out of their church and call you all sorts of names.

When I attended the schools I mentioned earlier, I was taught that the founding fathers had come to the new world to be free to practice their Protestant Christian beliefs after the reformation. The first Thanksgiving they gave thanks to God. My children and grandchildren were taught they gave thanks to the Indians.

It shows how easy it is for the father of deception to take a truth and make it have a completely different meaning.. We now have our founders coming here for freedom of religion as if the was a shipload of Buddhists, a shipload of Muslims, a shipload of Jews, and maybe a couple of Christians.
 

Because I took so long to answer we now have a view as to what shapes Cronos and your thought process when it come as to how you view scripture. You both freely admit your first teachings were by the  Catholic Church. I don't doubt you when you state that your later studies confirmed it. It is the mindset you learned to look at the Father and Son as one. I would hope you would show me the same courtesy.     

From you, Boatbums.

I was first taught the idea of the trinity probably in classes before First Holy Communion and certainly by Confirmation. I believed them then because I had no thoughts that it wasn't true. When I got older, I looked it up for myself and was sure that this is a Scriptural truth. After Bible College, I am positive it is true and have all the tools (proof-texts) I need to teach it to others. You could call it "tradition" but it is doctrine from Scripture that backs it up, so Sola Scriptura comes through again! ;o)
 

From Crones

Actually, I’m saying that “tradition” is what taught you it in the first place and then you went to back it up (just the same as I did). Now if someone did not have this tradition at all, what conclusion would they reach if they read the bible sola scriptura, i.e. alone without guidance from the community of believers? Don’t you think, seriously, that the concept of Unitarianism would be plausible to them? I take Zuriel’s posts — he has given very detailed explanations for why he disbelieves the trinity and the divinity of Christ. I believe he is sincerely trying to know, and by going sola he has reached the non-Trinitarian conclusion Now as to who I think Jesus is. I think God makes it is pretty clear in Romans.

Romans 5:12-21 (New King James Version)

 

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

   
¹² Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— ¹³ (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ¹⁴ Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. ¹⁵ But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. ¹⁶ And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. ¹⁷ For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
¹⁸ Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. ¹⁹ For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
²⁰ Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, ²¹ so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I tried to highlight  the parts where God compares Adam and Christ. He calls both of them a man and describes the actions of both and the results. Adam's disobedience caused death, Christ's obedience gives life.

God is showing us cause and effect of the actions of two entities. They have to be exactly the same for these comparisons to have any worth.

What is this crazy man saying now you ask? I am saying Jesus had to be exactly like pre-fall Adam to prove God's creation, man with free will, could live a sinless life.

I have to be gone for a while, will check when I get back to see just how crazy you think I am, God Bless BVB 

 

 

Sorry for taking so long to answer. To keep my bride from turning into a wife, I spent the last 2 days helping her put the house back to normal from Christmas.

Your next sentence is a real doozy. Jesus needed a way to have Himself executed while still being without sin. So are you implying that Jesus was just intentionally saying things to get them mad enough at him to kill him? How do you explain the OT Messianic prophecies that say this was going to happen? That say EXACTLY how he would be slain - not stoned - but crucified? You say "while he was still without sin" like at any moment he would get ticked off enough and blow it?

I will admit I could have phrased my post better. You didn't comment on the part I had wrong.  "This was the way He chose or God chose for Him."

I should have said, "This is the way God chose for Jesus and He obeyed."

Jesus could have been crucified if He murdered someone. He would no longer be sinless and it couldn't satisfy that prophecy.

God used the hardness of their hearts without violating their free will to make this happen.

Bottom line, the scripture was fulfilled.

 You have some strange theories about Christ and you could not have gotten them from a serious study of Scripture. It sounds curiously like Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses. Care to make your source known?

My source is Scripture with the aid of the Holy Spirit as Christ promised to members of His Church.

I grew up in a small town that had numerous Churches as was typical of that time including a Catholic Church. We had the 10 Commandments on the wall of most classrooms. We said the pledge and the Lord's Prayer first thing each morning at least through Jr. High. Winter break was still Christmas break including the singing of carols and a play centered on the birth of God's Son.

Spring break was still Easter along with the message of John 3:16, arguably the most quoted scripture in the Bible, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not parish but have everlasting life. 

All of this has one thing in common, the roles of the Father and Son. The father didn't die on the cross, the Son did to please His Father because His Father loves us. The Father asked and Jesus complied.

Jesus never asks us to pray to anyone but the Father in His/Jesus' name.

After school I spent 3+ years in the Navy. They last 6 months I dated a girl from that same town who had attended Catholic Schools. We got married in the Church after I got confirmed. I am sure the Doctrine of the Trinity was mentioned but it had little effect because of my well formed beliefs.

Going to confession and saying the Rosary were only done as required by a member of the Church. I stilled prayed and asked forgiveness from the Father in Jesus' name as I did before. We got a divorce after 5 years. All I will say about that is I was free to remarry which I did 4 years later.

My new bride is a Spirit filled Christians who wonders about me at times. We attended a church for about 6 months when I asked the choir director, "How come we seldom, if ever, sing worship songs to the Father or the Spirit, only to Jesus?" His answer, "If you sing to one, you sing to all." I asked him how he could make such a statement. The Doctrine of the Trinity was his answer. 

That was 30+ years ago. I still read scripture with the mindset that separates them. There is scripture after scripture where that is the case. Especially the greetings to the churches in the epistles and Christ's greetings to the Churches in Revelation.

I wonder if Zeriel's thought process works the same?

I thought I was the only one who was out of step until I learned it was made by men 300+ years after the fact and they would kick you out of their church and call you all sorts of names.

When I attended the schools I mentioned earlier, I was taught that the founding fathers had come to the new world to be free to practice their Protestant Christian beliefs after the reformation. The first Thanksgiving they gave thanks to God. My children and grandchildren were taught they gave thanks to the Indians.

It shows how easy it is for the father of deception to take a truth and make it have a completely different meaning.. We now have our founders coming here for freedom of religion as if the was a shipload of Buddhists, a shipload of Muslims, a shipload of Jews, and maybe a couple of Christians.
 

Because I took so long to answer we now have a view as to what shapes Cronos and your thought process when it come as to how you view scripture. You both freely admit your first teachings were by the  Catholic Church. I don't doubt you when you state that your later studies confirmed it. It is the mindset you learned to look at the Father and Son as one. I would hope you would show me the same courtesy.     

From you, Boatbums.

I was first taught the idea of the trinity probably in classes before First Holy Communion and certainly by Confirmation. I believed them then because I had no thoughts that it wasn't true. When I got older, I looked it up for myself and was sure that this is a Scriptural truth. After Bible College, I am positive it is true and have all the tools (proof-texts) I need to teach it to others. You could call it "tradition" but it is doctrine from Scripture that backs it up, so Sola Scriptura comes through again! ;o)
 

From Crones

Actually, I’m saying that “tradition” is what taught you it in the first place and then you went to back it up (just the same as I did). Now if someone did not have this tradition at all, what conclusion would they reach if they read the bible sola scriptura, i.e. alone without guidance from the community of believers? Don’t you think, seriously, that the concept of Unitarianism would be plausible to them? I take Zuriel’s posts — he has given very detailed explanations for why he disbelieves the trinity and the divinity of Christ. I believe he is sincerely trying to know, and by going sola he has reached the non-Trinitarian conclusion Now as to who I think Jesus is. I think God makes it is pretty clear in Romans.

Romans 5:12-21 (New King James Version)

 

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

   
¹² Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— ¹³ (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ¹⁴ Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. ¹⁵ But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. ¹⁶ And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. ¹⁷ For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
¹⁸ Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. ¹⁹ For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
²⁰ Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, ²¹ so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I tried to highlight  the parts where God compares Adam and Christ. He calls both of them a man and describes the actions of both and the results. Adam's disobedience caused death, Christ's obedience gives life.

God is showing us cause and effect of the actions of two entities. They have to be exactly the same for these comparisons to have any worth.

What is this crazy man saying now you ask? I am saying Jesus had to be exactly like pre-fall Adam to prove God's creation, man with free will, could live a sinless life.

I have to be gone for a while, will check when I get back to see just how crazy you think I am, God Bless BVB 

 

 

Your next sentence is a real doozy. Jesus needed a way to have Himself executed while still being without sin. So are you implying that Jesus was just intentionally saying things to get them mad enough at him to kill him? How do you explain the OT Messianic prophecies that say this was going to happen? That say EXACTLY how he would be slain - not stoned - but crucified? You say "while he was still without sin" like at any moment he would get ticked off enough and blow it?

I will admit I could have phrased my post better. You didn't comment on the part I had wrong.  "This was the way He chose or God chose for Him."

I should have said, "This is the way God chose for Jesus and He obeyed."

Jesus could have been crucified if He murdered someone. He would no longer be sinless and it couldn't satisfy that prophecy.

God used the hardness of their hearts without violating their free will to make this happen.

Bottom line, the scripture was fulfilled.

 You have some strange theories about Christ and you could not have gotten them from a serious study of Scripture. It sounds curiously like Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses. Care to make your source known?

My source is Scripture with the aid of the Holy Spirit as Christ promised to members of His Church.

I grew up in a small town that had numerous Churches as was typical of that time including a Catholic Church. We had the 10 Commandments on the wall of most classrooms. We said the pledge and the Lord's Prayer first thing each morning at least through Jr. High. Winter break was still Christmas break including the singing of carols and a play centered on the birth of God's Son.

Spring break was still Easter along with the message of John 3:16, arguably the most quoted scripture in the Bible, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not parish but have everlasting life. 

All of this has one thing in common, the roles of the Father and Son. The father didn't die on the cross, the Son did to please His Father because His Father loves us. The Father asked and Jesus complied.

Jesus never asks us to pray to anyone but the Father in His/Jesus' name.

After school I spent 3+ years in the Navy. They last 6 months I dated a girl from that same town who had attended Catholic Schools. We got married in the Church after I got confirmed. I am sure the Doctrine of the Trinity was mentioned but it had little effect because of my well formed beliefs.

Going to confession and saying the Rosary were only done as required by a member of the Church. I stilled prayed and asked forgiveness from the Father in Jesus' name as I did before. We got a divorce after 5 years. All I will say about that is I was free to remarry which I did 4 years later.

My new bride is a Spirit filled Christians who wonders about me at times. We attended a church for about 6 months when I asked the choir director, "How come we seldom, if ever, sing worship songs to the Father or the Spirit, only to Jesus?" His answer, "If you sing to one, you sing to all." I asked him how he could make such a statement. The Doctrine of the Trinity was his answer. 

That was 30+ years ago. I still read scripture with the mindset that separates them. There is scripture after scripture where that is the case. Especially the greetings to the churches in the epistles and Christ's greetings to the Churches in Revelation.

I wonder if Zeriel's thought process works the same?

I thought I was the only one who was out of step until I learned it was made by men 300+ years after the fact and they would kick you out of their church and call you all sorts of names.

When I attended the schools I mentioned earlier, I was taught that the founding fathers had come to the new world to be free to practice their Protestant Christian beliefs after the reformation. The first Thanksgiving they gave thanks to God. My children and grandchildren were taught they gave thanks to the Indians.

It shows how easy it is for the father of deception to take a truth and make it have a completely different meaning.. We now have our founders coming here for freedom of religion as if the was a shipload of Buddhists, a shipload of Muslims, a shipload of Jews, and maybe a couple of Christians.
 

Because I took so long to answer we now have a view as to what shapes Cronos and your thought process when it come as to how you view scripture. You both freely admit your first teachings were by the  Catholic Church. I don't doubt you when you state that your later studies confirmed it. It is the mindset you learned to look at the Father and Son as one. I would hope you would show me the same courtesy.     

[boatbums]

Thank you for your courteous response. Just to clarify, I am no longer a Roman Catholic as I prayed for God to reveal the truth about him to me and he led me to a Sunday School teacher who showed me John 10:27-30, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

From these verses, God opened my eyes to the truth of the Gospel that through faith in Jesus Christ I can HAVE eternal life and never be cast or plucked out of his hand. At the time, I had no reason at all to question the concept of the trinity and when Jesus used the phrase "my hand" and then "my Father's hand" and ended with "I and the Father are one", I understood or believed what he said. I started attending a non-denominational, Bible believing church and then attended and graduated from a Non-Denom Bible College. What I came to understand regarding the Trinity is, first of all, we cannot really grasp the entire truth of it with our finite, mortal minds. It is just too complex and immense to comprehend but what we have been told from Scripture must be understood in its entirety.

I believe Jesus Christ is Almighty God in the flesh, incarnate, God with us. Jesus is also called the Son of God and Son of Man and those titles have to do with both relationship and role but they are still one, true God. The Holy Spirit is also God and is manifested to us with a certain role, as well, but is still God. There is only one God who has revealed himself in three forms, so to speak, yet they are still all one - not just one in "purpose", but really one. Others have spent centuries trying to explain it all and I have no intention of repeating their views on this thread. Like I said, there are certain "mysteries" that we can only scratch the surface on understanding but I have faith that one day, when we "know as we are known", it will all make sense.